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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 23:28 
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Thanks Daniel this is great information!

Is it the "norm" for P180 operators to always fly max cruise power vs recommended cruise power?

Looking over that table, it is amazing that this aircraft didn't sell like hot cakes? The C525 and Phenom 100 are similar in speed but at a higher fuel flow, but the cabin is significantly smaller. Older legacy citations, as much as I like the thread on the C501SP, don't even come close.

If only Piaggio could sell the Evo for less money.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 07:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
it is amazing that this aircraft didn't sell like hot cakes?
1. Not an American aircraft company
2. Avantair fiasco. Folks at Avantair did everything wrong, including hiring incompetent & inexperienced pilots, not to mention faulty maintenance and marketing

In addition to other rumors, it all contributed to bad press so that potential customers stayed away.

IMO, BWDIK?

Hopefully it will come back to a new successful start with the EVO.
https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/piaggio-sale-enters-final-straight-as-talks-with-preferred-bidder-get-under-way/144507.article


Last edited on 10 Jul 2021, 08:11, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 07:15 
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Embraer is not American and they seem to do well with their Phenom series (to stay close to the P180). And in Europe Avantair issues didn’t really reach the general public and being Italian they should have sold better over there.

Let’s hope they can put a Garmin 1000/3000 nxi suite in the EVO-2 and push marketing more towards “fly different, fly green”. Jet like speeds for x% less fuel (read CO2).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
it is amazing that this aircraft didn't sell like hot cakes?
1. Not an American aircraft company
2. Avantair fiasco. Folks at Avantair did everything wrong, including hiring incompetent & inexperienced pilots, not to mention faulty maintenance and marketing

In addition to other rumors, it all contributed to bad press so that potential customers stayed away.

IMO, BWDIK?

Hopefully it will come back to a new successful start with the EVO.
https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/piaggio-sale-enters-final-straight-as-talks-with-preferred-bidder-get-under-way/144507.article

Unless you were involved in the hiring process, and have first hand knowledge, that seems a little harsh of an indictment against the pilot group. :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:48 
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Richard - I went over the challenges in a much earlier post. But in addition to what has been mentioned, there were three other main factors:

1. PRICE. The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter.

2. WRONG FOCUS. Piaggio marketed it to flight departments and as a corporate jet alternative/ambulance, when they should have been marketing it to the owner/operator all along. That is now righting itself in the used market.

3. CONSERVATIVE BUYERS. It was just a little too strange. Aircraft buyers are very conservative. To the point that if you today made a VLJ with the engines under the wings and not on the tail, I think you'd struggle, too. They want them to look like the "standard".

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter.

I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti.

If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 09:23 
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I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti.

If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Didn’t “Textron” (Beech) build the similarly configured Starship? I don’t remember that being a sales success either (and I think it’s one of the coolest looking planes ever built).

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 10:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter.

I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti.

If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation.


It's a strange looking airplane. Perhaps exotic would be a kinder description but it does look weird in comparison to most airplanes. On the other hand it's strangeness is a significant reason it is as fast as it is. And it's a weird airplane in that it operates at jet altitudes, going jet speeds but has props. I think all that bends some minds. When I think about the plane I am usually envisioning the interior which is beautiful and comfortable. After owning one for nearly a year I'm still surprised by how odd it looks from the outside.

Then, it's Italian and I think there is a bias against Italian made products in terms of reliability. Italian cars are beautiful and fast but I think the general perception is they are in the shop a lot. Not practical for every day use. The Piaggio is certainly practical for every day use.

These are things I think that are hard to get past in a conservative business market. If you showed executives the numbers and then blind folded them until in their seats for a test flight, a lot more EVO's would get sold.
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 12:30 
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Tony -

The 'uniqueness' of the exterior is what draws me to it and I'm pretty conservative :D
Then there is the PL21 cockpit and the rest of the interior and I love it. Always have. Is still my work iPad's background! :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 19:31 
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Odd thing about Piaggio is it’s a lot more Lear jet than not. Many many systems are Lear or made by American Lear suppliers. Cockpit is very Lear like - just wider.

One not mentioned benefit of the plane is it is certified for steep approaches. You can’t believe how steep you can dive for runway without picking up speed. You can be level at 1000agl on short final, let runway disappear under nose, pull power to idle and land on numbers. Also a very easy plane to hold Ref speeds on final.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 20:23 
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They also need all the new checkbox items if they want drive sales and compete at the new sales price they target...

Fadec, envelope protection, autothrottles etc.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 21:34 
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Reporting back on Ice Vanes.
From book: A torque drop occurs when the ice vane and bypass doors are extended.
If ITT is not maxed then throttles can be pushed forward to increase torque.

As much as I love this Avanti I would be hard pressed to buy one brand spankN new for 8 mil over a Phenom 300. Cabin likely favors Avanti but range and speed favor Phenom. 50k savings on fuel a year with Catfish would not move the needle….for me.
Wife loves this airplane

Avanti almost has envelope protection…I.E…benign stall characteristics.
If it had autothrottles I might get bored, forgeT I was flying and botch the landing.

Did I mention wife LOVES this airplane :D

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2021, 22:13 
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Brad - download the Phenom300 profile on Foreflight. It’s negligible speed wise u less you want to fly in low 30s. Citation Ultra noticeable speed improvement.

If I upgraded beyond Piaggio I want to fly everywhere above fl400. Can’t believe how much weather still lurks in 30s.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 06:01 
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Username Protected wrote:

If I upgraded beyond Piaggio I want to fly everywhere above fl400. Can’t believe how much weather still lurks in 30s.


Doesn't the Avanti go to FL410? ;)

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Last edited on 11 Jul 2021, 18:24, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Jul 2021, 09:41 
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I do not have the scratch to buy an 8 mil bird….or 4 mil bird so just a thought exercise. I purchased my Avanti at what I consider 60% off. Could not be more pleased.

Yes, I am taking a risk of airplane being AOG for a significant amount of time in the next five years waiting on a part. So be it. I could buy another Cirrus and fly for a few months then sell it when Avanti is ready.

Worth it

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