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23 Apr 2021, 06:22 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 22:00 
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1259
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Location: Charlotte (EQY)
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
ITT limits??
My first turbines so next to clueless.

Fly near limit to keep internal blades clean or fly conservatively around 785 to protect engine?

Limit on 66B is 830 with transient limit of 870 for no more than 20 seconds
However, lower temps of 785 will result in longer engine life....says manual

Green ITT limit is 820, 821 shows red (I think it was red)

In piston world lots of gurus with lots of opinions. I flew my Columbia (IO550) to 1900 hours with only Cylinder #5 rebuilt at 1300 hours so....

Seems like same difference of opinion with turbines.

BTW....learnt at Flight Safety:

“We never take good engines to a crash”
Once you escape wind shear just before pulling throttles back from 123% torque...

6,000 fpm climb...whoohoo

850 horses on a 1450 hp engine is babying enough.

Almost never under 800 for me unless convinced by evidence otherwise....
unless I can slow down a hair to avoid a fuel stop

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 23:01 
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Location: KFAT
Brad, the PT6 that benefitted from running at or near redline was a small block -21 variant on 90 series King Airs. Redline was near 695º, so sulfidation would occur if you applied a some margin flying it in the mid to low 600º range. That engine in particular happened to fly happily at redline all the way to HSI and OH without any accelerated wear and tear issues.

Different animal on the big block PT6s. You operate one of the highest thermodynamic hp PT6 variants capable of the hottest temps. Flying over 25k feet puts you over 700º in cruise. Sulfidation shouldn't be a concern.

Two schools of thought:

1. run a conservative ITT limit for easy ops, especially transitioning altitudes. Easy to do, but may not be as fast depending on how conservative you go. Keyword here is conservative

2. Use torque tables in the AFM. These power setting should yield the fastest speeds while still getting you to HSI or OH without opening the engine to find a completely worn engine. In other words, you should be able to make that torque the whole way with nominal ITT creep over the time between inspections. Always requires looking up temp and altitude though, so a little work


There were a lot of monkey business ratings made to PT6s that increased a redline here or there with no mechanical difference (-21s and -28s, -61s and -52s come to mind). What you really want to know is what your variant's happy place is.

Next time you're stable in cruise, open the AFM to get a power setting and note your ITT.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2021, 23:31 
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Aircraft: Solitaire
Got my plane back today after a few weeks of kerfuffle caused by the sending out a part that got ensnared in the TX weather fiasco. Fedex still hasn’t delivered it but I got a loaner so I could get back in the air.

Did single engine work today as well, such a well mannered plane to fly on one engine. Failed one on a missed approach go around. Put in some rudder, clean it up and you are going uphill at 1400fpm.

Stalls are interesting as the fwd wing stalls first with a little micro buffet. Extremely benign.

Maintainance shop detailed the plane before I picked it up too. That was a nice surprise. They made the cockpit look brand new.

Continue to pinch myself every flight in this thing. Such a cool plane.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2021, 23:42 
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Joined: 01/21/14
Posts: 3567
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Company: FAA Flight Check
Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F/C90GTi
Saw one in Midland, TX (KMAF) this morning.
A different looking paint job than I usually see.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 12:35 
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Company: The Saint Hotels
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti II
My Italian Stallions...
Attachment:
IMG_3501.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 13:13 
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Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA
Aircraft: Waco UMF3 Avanti II
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Tony - this is a tough winter for winds. I bet you will start making the westbound soon. 40-50kt gradient on the nose and you should make it. 100kt kills the range especially if it’s ifr on the other end.

How does the round trip compare to the TBM? Is your wife enjoying the bigger cabin?


Anthony,

I looked at trips last year in the TBM during the same time period. No notes on HW/TW but I assume they were actually less because I was flying lower. My average round trip was 9:54 average. As I said above my P180 trips are averaging 8.33 so the savings is 1.2 hours on a round trip.

As to my wife:

- she is less fatigued on arrival and the balance of arrival day. I assume this is due to lower altitude cabin (5-6k vs. 10k) and less noise.
- she says the comfort is about the same as she was very comfortable in the back of the TBM. However, she's only flown with one other passenger so far so hasn't had to play footsie which is certainly a bit more intimate in the TBM.
- she loves the enclosed potty. We had a potty in the TBM but it had two issues: hard to get pants down and back up because she couldn't stand upright and she wasn't comfortable using it (of course) with anyone but me on board.
- she does not like to fly. She "pretended" not to be there in the Cirrus and TBM by watching movies. Now she's in a bigger cabin and feels more comfortable. Plus, she likes getting there faster.


Last edited on 04 Mar 2021, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 13:44 
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Joined: 07/01/19
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Aircraft: In market
Username Protected wrote:
My Italian Stallions...
Attachment:
IMG_3501.JPG


Does Ferrari warrant the clutch when it’s a tug?

Seriously beautiful.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 17:13 
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA
Aircraft: Waco UMF3 Avanti II
Username Protected wrote:
Got my plane back today after a few weeks of kerfuffle caused by the sending out a part that got ensnared in the TX weather fiasco. Fedex still hasn’t delivered it but I got a loaner so I could get back in the air.

Did single engine work today as well, such a well mannered plane to fly on one engine. Failed one on a missed approach go around. Put in some rudder, clean it up and you are going uphill at 1400fpm.

Stalls are interesting as the fwd wing stalls first with a little micro buffet. Extremely benign.

Maintainance shop detailed the plane before I picked it up too. That was a nice surprise. They made the cockpit look brand new.

Continue to pinch myself every flight in this thing. Such a cool plane.


Screen envy! :bow:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 19:38 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 6731
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Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: KA A/B90
Where’s the Ducati Mark? :bat:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 01:12 
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Don’t forget the Riva!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 09:07 
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Joined: 12/30/15
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Location: Charlotte (EQY)
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
$100 hamburger training flight to Bloomington Indiana yesterday.
Stopped in local beverage store and scored. Clerk said the two bottles just came in.
Notice I have ITT at 799 headed back to Charlotte at FL350....with a 5,000 foot cabin!
I did push close to limits briefly on way up at FL300. 392 true...plane is dirty.
Polish and ceramic coating next week...

den we go phastR

P.S....Did anyone else notice the shadow from Anthony's picture....wowsa


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 23:24 
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Especially in Europe, but from what I can find this also applies to certain airports in the US, the P180 is banned due to noise. This is European regulations at its smallest. Having an aircraft that has a larger carbon footprint is preferred over noise. (similar faith for the MU-2).

Are there any plans to retrofit the Avanti I and/or II with the newer Evo props to reduce the noise footprint or are operators expected to upgrade to the Evo and just part out their "old" Avanti?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 23:32 
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Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KDLZ
Aircraft: '78 MU-2 P Model
@Brad. Which fuel flow is correct? Everything is matching up so nicely...except the l/r fuel flows diverge some? Is that consistent?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 00:22 
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Posts: 282
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
Especially in Europe, but from what I can find this also applies to certain airports in the US, the P180 is banned due to noise. This is European regulations at its smallest. Having an aircraft that has a larger carbon footprint is preferred over noise. (similar faith for the MU-2).

Are there any plans to retrofit the Avanti I and/or II with the newer Evo props to reduce the noise footprint or are operators expected to upgrade to the Evo and just part out their "old" Avanti?


What airports in the US banned the avanti?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 00:24 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KDLZ
Aircraft: '78 MU-2 P Model
Ocean Reef (Private).


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