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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 14:28 
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I don’t have direct experience with the FSI simulator, but I remember the direct Piaggio involvement in providing technical data and certification support.

I remember many squawks from Piaggio Tet pilots, regarding many aspects ranging from visual apparence, to control forces, to noise and audio levels... For a level D everything including details must be close to the real A/C.

Still hope to see it from real sometime!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 14:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think that 10hrs per month and at least 3-4 flights are necessary to maintain currency.


I'm glad you qualified the first with the second. I took my first P180 flight on 10/1/20 and have 180 hours logged and 65 flights. That includes training flights and sim time which is stacked in a close period of time. Operational flights are probably 2x a month on average. Not enough in a a)new type with b)new avionics system and c)twin when previous experience was a single.

I've shown you the skid marks on my underwear here in the hope that it's useful.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 14:35 
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Anthony,
I couldn't agree more about cat like reflexes degrading with age. Certainly I can see the slowing of my own, as I fit into that 60+ age group. What I would caution though is that there is a distinct catalog of experiences that I have to draw upon from the decades of real world and simulator experiences that do often prevent me from putting myself in the position to need my former cat like reflexes.
I would shy away from the kind of airplanes, and flying, that I did in the Navy, because they truly require those kind of reflexes.
However, civilian flying virtually never requires those reflexes. Instead, it requires excellent planning, attention to detail, and observation skills to be a truly safe and good pilot.
In flying, just like life, there are tradeoffs for age vs experience.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 15:17 
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John,

The P80 sim at FSI is a Level D sim. I think that's why I've been there with Polish Air Rescue, Italian Air Force and Argentine military pilots.

I have had one guy say to me that he thought the springs on the rudder pedals in the sim were harder than the plane. I suppose that's possible. On the other hand they seemed to me, in other use (outside the EFATO effort) to feel just like the plane.


I would be more worried about the software not doing the right thing at say 50% rudder travel. At RTC, you could apply full left rudder and the plane would literally yaw 90 degrees and continue flying, which is obviously absurd. Or the reverse, only thinking that 50% travel was required to maintain directional control with an engine out.

In the piston world I'm sure the investment in the sims is less, I am going to FlightSafety in November for a 441 course which will be my first experience with them and I am hoping the sim is much better than it was at RTC for the 340 (sim was actually a 414).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 15:46 
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As to Avanti being complicated I can only say from experience less complicated than my Aerostar.

I suspect much of the perceived complexity mentioned by pilots with vast experience flying other airplanes is due in large part to the forward wing and it’s extra systems.

Flaps take 16 seconds to mid.
Forward wing has it’s own anti ice which is heat vs main wing bleed air.

Pretty sweet compromise to be able to get 50 extra knots.

Winter temps are just around the corner :D

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 23:06 
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Good thread folks. Nice to have a BT thread w lots of good insights and little drift.

I did a 3hr flight to ATL today and spent most of it re-reading all my systems charts and emergency checklists.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 07:47 
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
One downside to parking my plane for a week at KPBI while at FSI is salt in the air. It rained a couple of times while I was there which I'm sure helped on the fuselage but I'm going to have it washed when I get to KSTS later this week and have compressor washes done with annual in a couple. Generally speaking how long before you'd do compressor washes and fuselage cleaning when parked near the ocean?

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Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2021, 08:05 
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One downside to parking my plane for a week at KPBI while at FSI is salt in the air. It rained a couple of times while I was there which I'm sure helped on the fuselage but I'm going to have it washed when I get to KSTS later this week and have compressor washes done with annual in a couple. Generally speaking how long before you'd do compressor washes and fuselage cleaning when parked near the ocean?


My hangar is at KFXE, which is a fair bit inland compared to KPBI. When doing flights around Florida I'm around 1x per month. Makers Air does them daily apparently. I also spray AFC50 into the compressor section too. Smells funny on the first flight, but I bog that section down with it.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 07:29 
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Sat in a cj4 yesterday. Beautiful plane, but I don’t understand how Piaggio didn’t mop up a huge chunk of those sales. The cabin is just so much smaller than the Piaggio. Pilot seats are fine and all, but given most planes of this class are bought by passengers it really shows how poor the marketing of the plane was.

Nashville to Denver yesterday would have been 20min flight time difference between the planes. I can get up stretch In back of Piaggio. I cannot in CJ. I thought bench seat in back of Mu2 was more comfortable than any seat in Citation.

If Piaggio could ever get their service figured out and throw Garmin in from the factory they would end up being quite competitive I think.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 08:58 
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So I needed a new stand up desk for my office. Found a guy that makes aviation furniture - he is making me a custom desk from a Piaggio wing section. It's coming along nicely.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 10:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sat in a cj4 yesterday. Beautiful plane, but I don’t understand how Piaggio didn’t mop up a huge chunk of those sales. The cabin is just so much smaller than the Piaggio. Pilot seats are fine and all, but given most planes of this class are bought by passengers it really shows how poor the marketing of the plane was.

Nashville to Denver yesterday would have been 20min flight time difference between the planes. I can get up stretch In back of Piaggio. I cannot in CJ. I thought bench seat in back of Mu2 was more comfortable than any seat in Citation.

If Piaggio could ever get their service figured out and throw Garmin in from the factory they would end up being quite competitive I think.


Anthony,
I like the CJ3 and CJ4, but they have the same limited headroom of the whole CJ line. The 3 and 4 have better range than the Piaggio, can go a little higher (FL450), and, like you said, they are a faster. On the other side of the spectrum, they are more expensive to operate, and the CJ4 begins to be an issue for the insurance guys being flown single pilot.
As we all have said before, one of Piaggio's biggest issues is the company that has been in and out of bankruptcy, and as such the support and parts supply lines have been in question. That coupled with abysmal market planning and strategy of the company over the life of the P180 has caused most of the problems. If the P180 had been any lesser of an airplane, the Avanti would have been a huge flop and died a quick death. It has only been due to the fantastic design and performance of the Avanti that has been able to , so far, keep the airplane in production.
I hope that they figure it out soon as I am very interested in the Avanti, but concerned about its future if they don't find a suitable buyer.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 19:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
So I needed a new stand up desk for my office. Found a guy that makes aviation furniture - he is making me a custom desk from a Piaggio wing section. It's coming along nicely.


I saw a beautiful large conference room desk like that a couple years ago at a new FBO in Ocala, FL. (Could have been Gainesville, but I think it was Ocala.). I think it was a glass table-top with a good wing section & ribs below.


Last edited on 16 Sep 2021, 21:43, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 19:59 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
I'm sitting at KPHL now as my AA flight continues to get delayed. I walked up to the earlier flight to see if I could get on...gate agent was very nice and helpful and said sure, we can get you on. A few minutes later "sorry, computer won't let it work, I tried..."

Dropped my Avanti I off for paint at Sureflight in Coatesville PA today. For anyone that follows Premier1 driver it's where he had paint done. I've worked with them before and they are just awesome people. I'm excited for the end product. There is a decal on the outside and I was thinking of asking them to remake it as an "Avanti IIIG" (new P&I & Garmin).

These planes are just awesome. Non-stop this week from Phoenix to Columbus, 1300lbs of people & stuff, landed with tight but comfortable VFR reserve, 4 hours, approx 350 gallons. Nice tailwind but nothing crazy, PHX kept me low for some time.

I'm sensing Anthony is heading for a jet...if anyone is looking for the most economical, high speed, high payload turbine aircraft I'd start lining up at his door.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 21:38 
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Company: Tack Mobile
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I'm sitting at KPHL now as my AA flight continues to get delayed. I walked up to the earlier flight to see if I could get on...gate agent was very nice and helpful and said sure, we can get you on. A few minutes later "sorry, computer won't let it work, I tried..."

Dropped my Avanti I off for paint at Sureflight in Coatesville PA today. For anyone that follows Premier1 driver it's where he had paint done. I've worked with them before and they are just awesome people. I'm excited for the end product. There is a decal on the outside and I was thinking of asking them to remake it as an "Avanti IIIG" (new P&I & Garmin).

These planes are just awesome. Non-stop this week from Phoenix to Columbus, 1300lbs of people & stuff, landed with tight but comfortable VFR reserve, 4 hours, approx 350 gallons. Nice tailwind but nothing crazy, PHX kept me low for some time.

I'm sensing Anthony is heading for a jet...if anyone is looking for the most economical, high speed, high payload turbine aircraft I'd start lining up at his door.


Sorry if this has been answered before but how does the avanti to in terms of lbs/nm/hr?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2021, 22:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm sitting at KPHL now as my AA flight continues to get delayed. I walked up to the earlier flight to see if I could get on...gate agent was very nice and helpful and said sure, we can get you on. A few minutes later "sorry, computer won't let it work, I tried..."

Dropped my Avanti I off for paint at Sureflight in Coatesville PA today. For anyone that follows Premier1 driver it's where he had paint done. I've worked with them before and they are just awesome people. I'm excited for the end product. There is a decal on the outside and I was thinking of asking them to remake it as an "Avanti IIIG" (new P&I & Garmin).

These planes are just awesome. Non-stop this week from Phoenix to Columbus, 1300lbs of people & stuff, landed with tight but comfortable VFR reserve, 4 hours, approx 350 gallons. Nice tailwind but nothing crazy, PHX kept me low for some time.

I'm sensing Anthony is heading for a jet...if anyone is looking for the most economical, high speed, high payload turbine aircraft I'd start lining up at his door.

Saw you pull up.
They have a sound that you recognize anywhere. Way back when a Client of the Warbird shop I worked at had one of the 1st batch of these in the states. Later had one of the 1st TBM 700s as well.
Good luck on the refinish.

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