banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 16:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 2840 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127 ... 190  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 12:22 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/17/15
Posts: 153
Post Likes: +150
Location: LIMG / EDDK
Aircraft: PA-28 / C172
Just a few of personal comments here.

While everything may be technically feasible, it is easy to underestimate the certification costs.

Every time we speak of engines and propeller upgrades, we are talking about a significant major mod impacting the Type Certificate and the Whole Engine Indication System. Not a simple STC to be field approved, here!

-66B engines are already available for upgrade on earlier Avanti II (just a few) but not on the Avanti I.

Why? Even with similarities/commonalities this would require a lot of recertification activities, including performances demonstration and tables (AFM ch. 5) that are also taking into account the instrument accuracies and/or resolutions. Piaggio can't take into account every potential EIS that could be installed as STC, and the existing EIS gauges for an Avanti I are the ones they are and simply can't be upgraded anymore to different ranges, and warning thresholds.

Even upgrading the PL21 is invasive, because you need new P/N for a lot of (expensive) stuff like the AFDs to handle the new ranges. This is one of the limitation, also impacting other functionalities, of this system I was addressing some messages ago: every mod on PL21, even if it is only SW, need a new HW P/N, with direct involvment of the OEM for the upgrade...

I don't subscribe that the AP is a dinosaur affecting all three variants: The PL21 one is still up-to-date, supporting all the latest PBN requirements, and don't forget that even the older APS-65 support Cat. II approaches with a single A/P architecture. A well featured dinosaur! (even if many of you don't need the feature).

For the RVSM and Garmin upgrades, we already discussed a bit in the past, but basically is only a matter of agreements between parties in order to achieve the required integration...


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 12:33 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6230
Post Likes: +3733
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:
When the engines get run out- give us the option to upgrade to the -66b (which can be done) and the new props. Yes there will also be new cowling and exhaust. But really how much can that be?

Piaggio will find a way to make it a lot!

_________________
-Jon C.


Last edited on 03 Aug 2022, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 12:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Daniel - it’s awesome having you on this thread. Thanks for the valuable input.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 12:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:

For the RVSM and Garmin upgrades, we already discussed a bit in the past, but basically is only a matter of agreements between parties in order to achieve the required integration...

This is what I’d most like to see get done. Could get rid of older, expensive to maintain flight instruments and ADC.

[quote=“Patrick Koch”] When the engines get run out- give us the option to upgrade to the -66b (which can be done) and the new props. Yes there will also be new cowling and exhaust. But really how much can that be?

Piaggio will find a way to make it a lot![/quote]

Icjc claims this is coming soon! Let’s hope they are right.

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 12:40 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6230
Post Likes: +3733
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:

Icjc claims this is coming soon! Let’s hope they are right.

Fingers crossed!

_________________
-Jon C.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 13:57 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/28/18
Posts: 12
Post Likes: +2
Location: Tampa
Username Protected wrote:
Just a few of personal comments here.

While everything may be technically feasible, it is easy to underestimate the certification costs.

Every time we speak of engines and propeller upgrades, we are talking about a significant major mod impacting the Type Certificate and the Whole Engine Indication System. Not a simple STC to be field approved, here!

-66B engines are already available for upgrade on earlier Avanti II (just a few) but not on the Avanti I.

Why? Even with similarities/commonalities this would require a lot of recertification activities, including performances demonstration and tables (AFM ch. 5) that are also taking into account the instrument accuracies and/or resolutions. Piaggio can't take into account every potential EIS that could be installed as STC, and the existing EIS gauges for an Avanti I are the ones they are and simply can't be upgraded anymore to different ranges, and warning thresholds.

Even upgrading the PL21 is invasive, because you need new P/N for a lot of (expensive) stuff like the AFDs to handle the new ranges. This is one of the limitation, also impacting other functionalities, of this system I was addressing some messages ago: every mod on PL21, even if it is only SW, need a new HW P/N, with direct involvment of the OEM for the upgrade...

I don't subscribe that the AP is a dinosaur affecting all three variants: The PL21 one is still up-to-date, supporting all the latest PBN requirements, and don't forget that even the older APS-65 support Cat. II approaches with a single A/P architecture. A well featured dinosaur! (even if many of you don't need the feature).

For the RVSM and Garmin upgrades, we already discussed a bit in the past, but basically is only a matter of agreements between parties in order to achieve the required integration...



Daniel, Thank you for all your technical info.

I guess I was a bit harsh about the AP65 and should choose my words better. However it is getting old and puts worries about the future.

The -66b is really not a big deal and in some ways may be a negative according to current owners that Like to go Fast. But would be a nice option in case!

For the P180I, I did just speak to a very well versed avionics person here in the USA that has lots a experience with the Garmin product and had this to say.

- Even though the g950Nxi is a fully intergraded (Less AP) system with a nice 15in MFD, he says the 600 txi and GTN 750/650 combination is way better then, IHHOP, to the 950 or even g3000!
- As for the Garmin and the AP65 RVSM curve issue at altitude that can be fixed and is not sure why its not yet. But said he can get a definitive answer if needed.
- Then finally for the EIS, That is all Garmin that is holding it up. If Garmin wanted to get that done they would. Even if you wanted to pay for the STC yourself you still would need Garmin's help and it could take years. Its puzzling even to him why Garmin is holding back on this as it is not as complicated as others engines since they have lots of experience with the PT6 Engines and the current EIS Ranges. However, since it really does not effect the plane or integration at all other than being able to move the info around the various displays, id still like to see something more modern and perhaps more easily serviceable for the future.

As for the P180II and EVO, He said Good luck without OEM Support and the only Option will be Fusion. Perhaps with the new Italian order of 6 more EVOS (this past may) with all the new updates will end in a upgrade to fusion but at what cost??

Looks like P180I is for me.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 15:15 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/17/15
Posts: 153
Post Likes: +150
Location: LIMG / EDDK
Aircraft: PA-28 / C172
Patrick,

Again, all my personal thoughts here, even if I left the company since a while, I don't want to break any NDA...

Maybe I've been a bit hasty about the APS-65, to be honest the major issue I see is the reliability of the electromechanical gyros (DG/VG), typical of the systems of the same era.

As far as I remember, there is a way of Collins SB's to upgrade the APC computer in order to support standard AHRSs but nobody wanted to walk that way.
As result, today we see STCs with digital AHRSs driving the EFIS/ADI installed side-by side to the VG/DG used by the autopilot... Some "picky" guys may even see safety issues here... :bugeye:

I must say that sometime it seems (to me) that some of you (excludind those present, of course! :D ) confuses STCs with OEM SBs.

We are all passionated and we would like to see any kind of upgrades and full support to our beloved P.180, but we can't blame Piaggio if the privately-funded STC's are less than optimal, not completely integrated or retaining some older equipment.

We know that some development (EIS, Autopilot, RVSM) may be expensive in terms of certification costs. If Piagggio support is needed, in terms of data or expertise, it is fair enough to pay them for the know-how. IMHO.

On the other hand we all know the company status: today they struggle to support the Avanti II/Evo... How one can pretend to let them develop new SBs for the Avanti I?
Let's cross the fingers for the future.

We can speak about Garmin or any other OEM, but if someone decide to provide a new autopilot or a new EIS, the fact is (right or wrong): all the costs are on them.

In the end, the sad truth may be that the fleet of flying Avanti I is not big enough to justify all those costs (and the passion loses the fight). :sad:


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 18:08 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8415
Post Likes: +8303
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
I don’t see any issue at all with the autopilot in the II. What am I missing? I was uncertain about PL21 in the beginning but aside from graphics I find it a better system than the Garmins I used in the past. Yes, the CASP contracts for support, starting at about 10k are an added expense but trivial in the whole cost picture.

There are certainly issues and concerns, especially parts, for these planes. But a risk worth bearing given their overall value. As to the I or II, as someone who considered both I’d advise focusing on the newest, lowest time, best maintained example you can find for overall cost and satisfaction.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 19:06 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/28/18
Posts: 12
Post Likes: +2
Location: Tampa
Username Protected wrote:
Patrick,

Maybe I've been a bit hasty about the APS-65, to be honest the major issue I see is the reliability of the electromechanical gyros (DG/VG), typical of the systems of the same era.

As far as I remember, there is a way of Collins SB's to upgrade the APC computer in order to support standard AHRSs but nobody wanted to walk that way.
As result, today we see STCs with digital AHRSs driving the EFIS/ADI installed side-by side to the VG/DG used by the autopilot... Some "picky" guys may even see safety issues here... :bugeye:

I must say that sometime it seems (to me) that some of you (excludind those present, of course! :D ) confuses STCs with OEM SBs.

We are all passionated and we would like to see any kind of upgrades and full support to our beloved P.180, but we can't blame Piaggio if the privately-funded STC's are less than optimal, not completely integrated or retaining some older equipment.

We know that some development (EIS, Autopilot, RVSM) may be expensive in terms of certification costs. If Piagggio support is needed, in terms of data or expertise, it is fair enough to pay them for the know-how. IMHO.

On the other hand we all know the company status: today they struggle to support the Avanti II/Evo... How one can pretend to let them develop new SBs for the Avanti I?
Let's cross the fingers for the future.

We can speak about Garmin or any other OEM, but if someone decide to provide a new autopilot or a new EIS, the fact is (right or wrong): all the costs are on them.

In the end, the sad truth may be that the fleet of flying Avanti I is not big enough to justify all those costs (and the passion loses the fight). :sad:


All excellent points, especially the part of the APS65 electromechanical gyros. Soon they will be very hard to repair, replace and calibrate. Only what I here.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 19:40 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/28/18
Posts: 12
Post Likes: +2
Location: Tampa
Username Protected wrote:
I don’t see any issue at all with the autopilot in the II. What am I missing? I was uncertain about PL21 in the beginning but aside from graphics I find it a better system than the Garmins I used in the past. Yes, the CASP contracts for support, starting at about 10k are an added expense but trivial in the whole cost picture.

There are certainly issues and concerns, especially parts, for these planes. But a risk worth bearing given their overall value. As to the I or II, as someone who considered both I’d advise focusing on the newest, lowest time, best maintained example you can find for overall cost and satisfaction.



I too am really leaning on the the newer, lower time is better but... I still feel one is getting a new old plane.

If there was a chance that at least Synthetic vision would be available I would feel more comfortable but its a 500k to 1 mil gamble. With the Garmin at least you know you will have support. Not so sure Collins is there to help!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2022, 19:50 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8415
Post Likes: +8303
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Do you mean you’re not sure if Collins will ever do syn vis for PL21, make Fusion for P180 or simply assist if a customer has a problem? Don’t think they will do the first or second but have no reason to assume they won’t the third.

When one buys a turbine one buys into an ecosystem and takes the risks attendant with that. It certainly is safer to buy a Texron owned product, for example, thank a Piaggio for example. The Avanti is riddled with problems: you can have a Frankensystem if avionics in the I or an older, not completely up to date one in a II. You have to hope someone will sell you parts when you need them. You have to accept that no one is likely to produce or adapt any innovations for a fleet with under 300 airframes. And so on. It’s certainly not for everyone. But the market values for the plane, though significantly increased in the last 2 years, reflect market judgement on the risk vs reward.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2022, 22:44 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/28/18
Posts: 12
Post Likes: +2
Location: Tampa
So I have been going through some numbers for the weight and balances of both the 180I and II and am really confused.

I want to make sure that my expectations will be met before I dive in and by a Piaggio.

For the most part flying around the east coast from Tampa, I do not see a Weight and balance issue. Its when I try to Take off Max fuel with just my wife and about 300 LBS in the Aft hold where things go array! I just cannot get the planes CG into acceptable areas.
I loaded up the beverage compartments to the max and even added a few pounds to my Wife sitting in the co pilots seat (hope she doesn't find out) and still I am off.

I Used a CG of 207 and 8000LBS Even if I put 50 ibs in the front it was no help.

How do you fly Full fuel with gear in the rear hold?


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2022, 22:59 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 6230
Post Likes: +3733
Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Username Protected wrote:
Its when I try to Take off Max fuel with just my wife and about 300 LBS in the Aft hold where things go array! I just cannot get the planes CG into acceptable areas.

I Used a CG of 207 and 8000LBS Even if I put 50 ibs in the front it was no help.

I should state that I have not yet flown mine, still working through getting mx up to snuff.

But most airplanes seem to be in the empty wt/cg range of 8000-8300 lbs and 209-212”. Saw a II the other day that was 8400 lbs and cg of 212”. And yes, there is something of an aft CG loading issue with light passenger loads and full fuel. Everyone says they carry a couple hundred pounds of shot bags under the copilot seat and/or front couch. Pax move the cg forward, so the more folks you carry the better the cg.

Sweet spot to my mind is cg roughly 209.5. You aren’t so far out the aft limit that a little ballast won’t take care of it, but also have enough room with the forward limit to carry a good number of pax if desired. But good luck finding one in the sweet spot!

I believe there is a service bulletin about how to add ballast to the nose avionics bay. All the Garmin conversions have at least some ballast up there. Here’s a pic. See the lead plates bolted under the collins box on the center shelf.

Note that operators who fly with 2 pilots and bigger cabin loads actually want the CG further aft. There is a SB for putting ballast in the tail cone as well. That sb requires a panel placard, so if you see such a panel placard it is possible there might be lead in the tail that can be removed. But I saw one with placard, and the lead wasn’t actually there, so ultimately if you want to know the real cg you just have to weigh the plane.

Attachment:
823177BC-FA0E-4E3C-A7FE-71B1D8D783B9.jpeg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
-Jon C.


Last edited on 04 Aug 2022, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2022, 23:03 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5520
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
I know Anthony flies with a few shot bags up front.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2022, 23:16 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/28/18
Posts: 12
Post Likes: +2
Location: Tampa
Username Protected wrote:
Its when I try to Take off Max fuel with just my wife and about 300 LBS in the Aft hold where things go array! I just cannot get the planes CG into acceptable areas.

I Used a CG of 207 and 8000LBS Even if I put 50 ibs in the front it was no help.

I should state that I have not yet flown mine, still working through getting mx up to snuff.

But most airplanes seem to be in the empty wt/cg range of 8000-8300 lbs and 209-212”. Saw a II the other day that was 8400 lbs and cg of 212”. And yes, there is something of an aft CG loading issue with light passenger loads and full fuel. Everyone says they carry a couple hundred pounds of shot bags under the copilot seat and/or front couch. Pax move the cg forward, so the more folks you carry the better the cg.

Sweet spot to my mind is cg roughly 209.5. You aren’t so far out the aft limit that a little ballast won’t take care of it, but also have enough room with the forward limit to carry a good number of pax if desired. But good luck finding one in the sweet spot!

I believe there is a service bulletin about how to add ballast to the nose avionics bay. All the Garmin conversions have at least some ballast up there. Here’s a pic. See the lead plates bolted under the collins box on the center shelf.

Note that operators who fly with 2 pilots and bigger cabin loads actually want the CG further aft. There is a SB for putting ballast in the tail cone as well. That sb requires a panel placard, so if you see such a panel placard it is possible there might be lead in the tail that can be removed. But I saw one with placard, and the lead wasn’t actually there, so ultimately if you want to know the real cg you just have to weigh the plane.

Attachment:
823177BC-FA0E-4E3C-A7FE-71B1D8D783B9.jpeg


Hmmm, So much for saving weight by going Garmin to add back what there taking out to keep Plane in Balance.

Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 2840 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127 ... 190  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.Marsh.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.