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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2021, 07:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
So, there's now been a pretty good board accumulation of flying hours and daily use so that we could perhaps start to see a truer operational cost profile?

Has the Avanti been the money pit everyone suggested or is it more inline with the expectations you had? What are the summary experiences from operators here?


Adam,

I've been ignoring your question because I don't have a full year operating yet. But then, another member, who I thought was my friend, sent me a PM asking for details. I thought I might as well copy my answer here:



It takes a year or more to really figure out what things are going to cost. And in a turbine it also depends on where you are at in the various multi year cycles as you know. As to insurance it's highly variable on time in type as well as limits. So, I can't give you an hourly figure but I'll share some expenses from memory to see if that helps.

Background: my plane is 12 years old (lots of overhauls due), just over 1,000 hours TTAF (low time = less things break), I had 17 hours multi when I bought it, no initial training and zero time in type (high insurance cost). Most of my trips are 1,000 to 1,250 NM and I make the west bound with one stop about 2/3rds of time (that may go up as my experience in warmer weather doesn't experience cold yet) and I always make it nonstop going east. So, long legs lower ops cost. YMMV.

Finally, costs vary a lot by how you operate. Some tolerate things I won't. I figure it doesn't get cheaper to fix later. I'm anal. I have a good shop on the field. So, other's experience may be different.

When I purchased the former owner had not been flying much or keeping up with maintenance. There were missing corrosion inspections, electrical malfunctions, toilet cracked, squibs to OH, masks to OH, and inspections with related repairs, etc etc(about 20 pages of discepancies) that cost about 100k to catch up and the owner couldn't afford so I paid for them and reduced purchase price. ADSB had been done but it didn't have LPV, which I wanted, which cost $75,000.

That gets us started.

Insurance for $5mm smooth was $25k.

Avionics full warranty coverage is $18k. I'll probably take lower coverage next year.

Avionics subscriptions run about $15k but I have charts which most don't, I have XM weather which most don't.

I own my own hangar at a $200k cap cost but am in a hangar community with $575/month dues.

Currently doing 12 year gear OH which will be about $275k all in. I knew this going in and purchase price reflected it at nearly dollar for dollar. Part 91 you can skip but it affects purchase price obviously.

Prop OH's were done 2 years ago and they're $6k each.

My primary pitch trim actuators are due for OH but I still don't have cost on that as no OH'd parts are available so I'm on extension. There was some related inspection expense which has been done and will be about $2,500 when I get the bill.

I had some other misc 12 year items, 3,6 and 12 month items done about 6 weeks ago for $12,800.

I just had it in the shop to check hydraulic filter because, though I RTFM I didn't read the right FM carefully. That'll cost a couple grand for no good reason but I do now have $2,700 worth of brand new jacking points. But I digress...

I'm budgeting about $50k for this year's annual event due in September based on status of A,B,C,D checks, etc. based on discussions with shop.

Which brings me to the point that annual maintenance is highly variable based on utilization and where you are on the hourly cycle and which checks are due. My best advice here is to have a conversation with a knowledgeable shop like ICJS and learn the labor hours, average parts cost, etc for these. Every turbine should be on tracking and with that the shop should be able to project your annual expenses on a given airframe pretty well.

I've flown plane about 125-130 hours since getting out of the shop last October. I'll end the operating year, this year, around 180 hours I think. Hopefully more next year as things are opening up.

Oh, FlightSafety is $13,800 for recurrent plus travel expenses and I've done about $6k worth of in aircraft initial training if you just count instructors and fuel bills.

And, don't forget HSI's at 1750 hours for say $30k each or $35 per hour. And OH's at 3,500 hours and $400k each.

I've had some fod damage to one prop blade, 2 compressor blades and a tire ($1,480 plus labor for that tire) from my home airport's allowing a 100,000 pound aircraft to operate on my 80,000 taxiway :pullhair: . That's only cost about $5k all in (and they are repairing the taxiway).
As an aside: brakes and tires aren't cheap. Someone opined it's about $35 per landing for those. I see the P180 as a biplane and as I've said elsewhere biplane brakes are only for holding for runup. Seriously, you don't have to use brakes hardly at all if you aren't on short runways and use Beta judiciously. My guess is pro pilots who aren't paying the bills don't do that and actual brake cost per landing can be less. We'll see...

Also, I have flown all over the country with fuel prices from $3 to $6 a gallon and variable ramp and parking fees. I've parked the airplane on ramps for about 4 or 5 weeks so far.

I have no idea what the hourly costs are yet. When I've had it a full year I'll have my accountant run reports which I'll then analyze for what costs are taking into account the 6 and 12 year items, etc.

I've made one leg at 40k and have no doubt it'll go up another thousand feet. I usually fly at 35-36 but sometimes go up to 37-38. The plane climbs very well, to low thirties depending on temp and then the last few thousand are a few hundred to 500 fpm. I am usually about 11,500ish on take off for that.

So, all in I think I'm around $1700/hour plus airplane cap costs and depreciation. Add about $900/hour for those things based on purchase price and 5% annual depreciation (though I actually think I've experienced $0 in depreciation and actually have gained value in the current year - but that won't last forever).

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2021, 07:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Question for PT-6 operators regarding the ice doors/inertial separators. In the Mits training was whenever in visible moisture below 10C inlet heat required. The ice doors on the P180 are a huge performance suck. What are your operational norms. For example at FL350, -45c in the clouds standard thinking is too cold for ice? Are you using ice doors?

Or when -10c. Doors in use always in clouds or are you waiting for signs of ice?


The ice detector is amazingly sensitive.

When going into visible moisture at icing temps all protections come on. That usually doesn't last long climbing. I wouldn't use in your example.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2021, 20:32 
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Thank you Tony!

You're obviously catching up with some items and have training etc on top of that, so it's gonna be expensive the first year/years. And the gear hurts, but hey, if you can swing it (see what I did there?), it's obviously the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure it will drop in the coming years, from what I've heard it seems to end up in the $1000-1200/hr region.

I gotta be honest - as I look at even best case scenario of my two businesses/professions, I don''t think I'll ever be able to swing a P180 unless something radical happens. So I'm living vicariously through you guys!

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2021, 23:04 
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Going into Scranton,Pa earlier today New York had me down to FL190 with over 100 miles to go. IMC with temps around -6. Ice light goes off (.5mm to activate ice light)
I look over my left shoulder at visual ice prob and have maybe 2mm all ready.

Ok, time to turn on systems….no big hurry.
Plenty warm below if any malfunctions

Forward wing is electric…30 amp generator rise each side…all good.

Strained to look at main wing….hmmm, might be getting close to moderate ice.
Turned on main wing heat which is bleed air heat from engines.
5-7 seconds later watch ice quickly shed. Ice long gone before annunciation light for main wing heat comes on the systems page.

Turned on ice vanes, oil cooler then engine boots to auto.

Flawless operation

Me…SITTING at 19000 feet with light to maybe moderate icing and grinning.
Would have been a hair nervous in known ice Aerostar.

Worth it

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2021, 00:38 
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Great post, Tony. Thanks for sharing.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2021, 11:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Going into Scranton,Pa earlier today New York had me down to FL190 with over 100 miles to go. IMC with temps around -6. Ice light goes off (.5mm to activate ice light)
I look over my left shoulder at visual ice prob and have maybe 2mm all ready.

Ok, time to turn on systems….no big hurry.
Plenty warm below if any malfunctions

Forward wing is electric…30 amp generator rise each side…all good.

Strained to look at main wing….hmmm, might be getting close to moderate ice.
Turned on main wing heat which is bleed air heat from engines.
5-7 seconds later watch ice quickly shed. Ice long gone before annunciation light for main wing heat comes on the systems page.

Turned on ice vanes, oil cooler then engine boots to auto.

Flawless operation

Me…SITTING at 19000 feet with light to maybe moderate icing and grinning.
Would have been a hair nervous in known ice Aerostar.

Worth it


Any airspeed reduction to the ice?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2021, 18:00 
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Ice vanes activation will increase ITT around 30 degrees (from memory)
If ITT is all ready maxed which should not be at icing altitudes then reducing power will be required.

Ice vanes should never be needed at upper Flight levels.

Main wing heat (bleed air from engines) will rob a little bit of power.

3,000 hours Avanti pilot told me he NEVER took off with any anti-ice systems running.

Turn on above ~1,500 agl. She will not fall out of the sky.
Besides, if icing is that horrible…..I do not need to take off.

I will review and report back this weekend if mistaken.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2021, 20:22 
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Flew Denver to Seattle this morning. ISA +26 at takeoff. Temp'd out a little sooner than normal but still shot up to FL360 without difficulty.

Decided to test out long range cruise settings a bit. FL360, ISA +15, 200lbs/side I settled into 308kts true. So .74nm/lb. I then ran it up to 780 on the ITT, my typical cruise limit. Was at 360kts true on 270lbs/side, or .66nm/lb. I took off with full fuel, me and 200lbs of ballast.

For comparision, my MU2 would have likely been (assuming ISA +15 at FL280) around 285kts on 480lbs/hr, so about .59nm/lb.

Pretty incredible difference given how much bigger Piaggio is. Flew 80% of the flight with no headset using cockpit speaker and hand held mike.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 00:41 
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How does the PT6-66A compare to the -66B?

In the real world is there a speed difference between the Avanti I and II? And is there a significant difference in fuel flow at let's say FL350/360 between the I and II or (the 66A and 66B)?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 01:02 
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I think the 66b is a smidge faster although paint condition matters more than engines.

Book tops the Avanti out at 392kts. Avanti II is 404kts or something. I think the II does a little better at FL380 than mine does which I am sure helps with efficiency a little bit. A lot of the IIs are heavy though.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 01:14 
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I found an old blog-post here: https://blog.wepushtin.com/blog/differe ... vanti-evo/ which claims the Avanti II would be slightly slower but doing so burning 20 gph less. That seemed very optimistic.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 03:13 
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That blog is wrong.

Looking at the AFM performance numbers, the opposite is true, but the claimed 20 knots gap also depends on weight and altitude (of course).

The differences are related to the engines (PT6A-66 vs -66B) rather than A/C model.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 09:47 
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Daniel - could u post a pic of the max cruise chart from that afm for that Avanti II at ISA? Will post that Avanti I later today


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 11:31 
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The discussion we had at FlightSafety was that the B's in the II resulted in a bit of climb rate increase. Both are solid engines obviously and I think for the prospective purchaser it shouldn't factor in to decision. More important to consider TT, condition, panel, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Jul 2021, 12:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Daniel - could u post a pic of the max cruise chart from that afm for that Avanti II at ISA? Will post that Avanti I later today


Here there are two pages excerpts aligned side by side @ FL310.

Attachment:
maxcruise.jpg


Avanti II AFM carry both -66 and -66B engines performance tables, because the latter were introduced after the new model certification (and a "cheap" upgrade SB is also available! :bugeye: ).

I don't have an Avanti (I) AFM handy, but IIRC the performances for -66 engines are the same (at same MTOW, of course).

(image edited to avoid... ;) )


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