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19 May 2022, 17:38 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2022, 15:38 
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This file is "public" :scratch: available

https://mikeklochcfi.files.wordpress.co ... series.pdf

Pages 34/35 gives typical temperatures for the entire family, 1000 °C @ T4 (compressor inlet) being the hottest point.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2022, 22:13 
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On Cruise ITT:

FWIW, I believe the Piaggio (-66/-66B) uses basically the same PT6 model as the TBM (-66D). P&W describes them as "similar," citing only "single engine application" with "manual override" for the TBM's -66D. In the TBM POH, there is a somewhat buried parenthetical that says "continuous operation" above 790C is not recommended. The TBM POH publishes recommended cruise and max cruise Torque % settings by ISA/Altitude, where recommended cruise at high altitude appears limited to generate a ~790C ITT. On TBMOPA, people generally post that they respect the 790C limit and will push it higher only when it really counts (eg climbing through icing with the separator deployed).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2022, 14:31 
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Today in Genoa. Quite a number, isn't it? (including a special one) :eek:

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At the end of the rainbow there should be a pot of gold!
Let's use it to refund the company!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2022, 18:07 
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Went to Flight Safety this week, few observations:

- the training is very good, I really enjoyed it
- with the 3 yr contract, the pricing isn't really that bad compared to recurrent in the plane, however, it takes longer so you have more hotel, etc which adds up. Still worthwhile IMO, more of an immersion than a quick hit
- people who sing the PL21 praises either fly as a crew or have not flown a newer TXI garmin setup. There is no comparison for single pilot. Even if you know the PL21 it takes many more inputs and more focus to do simple things. The Avanti II AP has some cool modes though (linked VNAV and FLC specifically)
- if you have not flown a PL21 plane much and go to the recurrent, it's tough to catch up to the avionics. The cockpit is dark and a lot of switches are in different spots. My muscle memory was way off. Things like changing an altitude quickly on the AP took two days to get into a rhythm on. Biggest issue for me was the PFD AI display is backwards with the pointer than how my Garmin is set. The triangle with the ball moves on the PL21, which I eventually got used to, but holy cow was it tricky on the first few flights. I had to learn a new scan completely. FSI should give Garmin guys a few laps in the pattern and a few upsets to start the course just so you can figure out a scan that works for you. Hard to pick up when you go right into emergency-ville.
- I had never flown a full motion sim before. It's cool, overly sensitive and the graphics made me motion sick. Day 2 I took something for it and was fine.
- The ground training was thorough and excellent. I enjoyed all my instructors and liked reviewing everything in great detail.
- The engine failures at low altitude were a handful - partially b/c I thought I was in wings level mode and I was in heading mode so I chased the FD too much on the first few. Managed to not hit the ground, but was not as tight as I would have liked to be. High and hot from Denver was actually better. The sim felt more realistic at high DA (way less twitchy in roll). Was great to review all of those.
- A lot of the failures with avionics were not useful for Avanti I - PL21 just fails in different ways and you are left with a different subset of working systems. I am going to see if next year I can skip some of those and just do more engine out work.
- It was a huge time commitment - 4 full days. I have not spent that much time training on anything outside of my MU2 initial. I think it was worthwhile though. I liked how they don't skip anything - there is a curriculum and you do every single module and maneuver. Even though there was a bit of negative training around avionics, it was overall great training. That said, I cannot believe you can get checked out in that sim and then go fly the real airplane. The real one, especially on the ground, feels a lot different. They apparently made the ground handling extra twitchy on purpose, however, I found it over the top.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 07:50 
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Ciao Anthony,
I think you can set up your G600 TXi ADI with a “Sky Pointer” instead of a “roll index.” You will get used to it and might like it better.

“They are called sky pointers because they always point straight up, at the sky. If, for example, you are in a 30-degree right bank the sky pointer will be 30 degrees left of the center mark. Most of us are used to the so-called roll index indication that is 30 degrees to the right in a 30-degree banked right turn. The roll index is common in light airplanes, but the sky pointer is the norm in jets.” Flying Magazine February 25, 2005


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 08:54 
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You are probably right that I would get used tk the pointer however, I like the ball slider not moving!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 09:12 
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After several days of struggling with the sky pointer someone showed me how to change the display to a cross. It makes it much easier to do things like steep turns.

I found the sim to be more realistic in feel than you did Anthony but agree it doesn't feel right on the ground.

What's the 3 year contract? I knew they had a 2 year deal but haven't heard of the 3.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 10:13 
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They give u a discount off list more years you sign up for. They started with 5, I got that price for 3. It’s darn close to what you were paying Tony.

I found the initial roll rates to be much faster than the real plane. I don’t find the real plane twitchy in roll at all but thought the sim was. Rudder forces seemed accurate and pitch was about right. Apparently the ground handling used to be more accurate but they made it more responsive so it would be harder after some runway excursions.

I think next year will be much easier now that I have a better understanding of PL2. I also think if you were coming from a jet style glass setup, PL2 would be more intuitive.

I think the switches on the Avanti II are in better spots for flows as well, you just have to remember where they are! The landing light next to the gear makes sense unless you are used to it being 2’ away :)

Tony - u had mentioned this before, but the main wing auto heat failure is a more insidious failure than I imagined. Good to train that one.


Last edited on 08 Jan 2022, 10:22, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2022, 10:15 
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I signed up for three year deal also.
11450 first year with 3% increase the following two years.
Single year price is now 15k.

Headed down for recurrent next month.

Trip tomorrow to Arkansas to duck hunt showing only 45 knots of headwind.
Came down with Covid Thursday and had to cancel.

Would much rather catch Covid just before jury duty.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 10:03 
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Just an update on the P180 we are bringing to market.

SN 1036-
ESP Gold, ~2950 TT, No damage that I'm aware of. Garmin Installed (NXI, GTN750/650) 7pax layout, No Avantair history. Asking price will be $2.295. This is a little less than we originally planned, since it will need gear next year and is about 650 hrs from the "D". It is a solid airplane overall. It will be headed to Brodies next week for some maintenance work. No doubt, values are up!

Thanks.

Bryon Mobley
bryon@wetzelaviation.com
(303)517-4822


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 12:39 
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Username Protected wrote:

It depends entirely on where you measure in hot stage or exhaust chain. And in the case of the TPE's, most have some sort of ambient and alt temp compensation.


My question asks about the first stage nozzles (the hottest part).


As an aeronautical engineer and former Garrett TPE331-14/15 head designer, here's what i can tell you...(correct me if this doesn't answer your question)

The thermocouple probes are placed downstream in the turbine for the simple reason they can't withstand the environment farther upstream. Basic turbine cycle analysis allows engineers to use the temperature registered at the probe to "back out" the temperature at the HPT 1st stage vane nozzle leading edge which is the 'worst' place to be in a gas turbine. In the TPE series (and most TFE engines), the thermocouple were in the back of the engine, both for reliability and maintainability.

What the actual (or calculated) gas temperature is at the entrance to the turbine is can be a complicated discussion, depending on ambient temperature, thermodynamic cycle, and flat rating limitations. Somewhere I have the type of number you are looking for (SLS, TO, Standard Day) buried in my files, but it would take a bit of effort to retrieve.

I don't recall any type of compensation within this system (and I'm looking at some TPE14/15 system documentation I have and there's nothing mentioned about it), but you should be aware that all Garrett turbine engines of the 1960-2000 vintage (whether turbofans, turboprops, or APUs) have multiple probes that average the exhaust temperatures. Originally each probe was set to the same immersion depth in the exhaust stream, which led to distress issues in some engines when hot streaks developed that exited the engine between the probes. Later improvements began staggering the probe depths to get a more realistic averaging.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 12:45 
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Here's some reading material.....maybe the compensation system you are thinking of is what is in the engine control


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 14:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't recall any type of compensation within this system (and I'm looking at some TPE14/15 system documentation I have and there's nothing mentioned about it), but you should be aware that all Garrett turbine engines of the 1960-2000 vintage (whether turbofans, turboprops, or APUs) have multiple probes that average the exhaust temperatures. Originally each probe was set to the same immersion depth in the exhaust stream, which led to distress issues in some engines when hot streaks developed that exited the engine between the probes. Later improvements began staggering the probe depths to get a more realistic averaging.


The -8 and -10N used in the 441 have two points of temperature compensation, the compensating resistor on the engine case that the EGT probes are connected to, and the fuel computer SRL system that uses multiple inputs (temp, airspeed, etc.) to condition the EGT so the pilot can always use 450C as the red line. This secondary system can be turned off by flipping off the fuel computer, in which case a chart is needed to compute redline. The resistor on the engine case can be adjusted within a range set at overhaul (or manufacture) and listed on the DSC sheet. The EGT value is then basically an arbitrary value based on these two adjustments.

The -14/15 are unique scaled up versions with a larger case and components, so not sure what might apply there.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 15:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
The -8 and -10N used in the 441 have two points of temperature compensation, the compensating resistor on the engine case that the EGT probes are connected to, and the fuel computer SRL system that uses multiple inputs (temp, airspeed, etc.) to condition the EGT so the pilot can always use 450C as the red line. This secondary system can be turned off by flipping off the fuel computer, in which case a chart is needed to compute redline. The resistor on the engine case can be adjusted within a range set at overhaul (or manufacture) and listed on the DSC sheet. The EGT value is then basically an arbitrary value based on these two adjustments.

The -14/15 are unique scaled up versions with a larger case and components, so not sure what might apply there.

I was unaware there was any way for the pilot to turn off any engine controls from the cockpit and I don’t recall any ‘off’ switch on the fuel control itself, but it’s been 25 years since I last worked on TPEs.

BTW, while the -14GR/HR and -15AW models are larger physically (aka large blocks), the basic architecture is similar to the small block 331s.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2022, 17:09 
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Very interesting Art.

Would you be able to answer why the -14 has an electronic FCU, whereas the small block 331's have either Bendix or Woodward "bellows and monkey motion" FCU's? Was there ever talk about "downscaling" the -14 FCU to the small block series?

Reason I'm asking is that a friend over at the Commander forum was kinda taken to the cleaners overhauling his Bendix unit just recently. Bad service, very expensive and there is only one overhaul shop. Seems like an electronic FCU (basically an advanced fuel injection pump, right?) would be so much more reliable and easy.

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