Adam, so the other item is that it needs to be cheaper to operate on a p/mile basis than a comparable CJ jet.......cause that's the competition (IMHO).......

It's hard to beat turboprop fuel economy when you have jet speeds. The jet guys keep saying how effiecient they are up there, but when you crunch the numbers it's obvious that TP's still have a big advantage.

This was a comparison I did for a fictional 5000nm trip:

Turbo Commander 1000 (1700nm range, 300kts, 402pph, 3 stops ):
Time: 16.66hrs
Fuel stop time: 3hrs
TOTAL TIME: 19.66hrs
FUEL BURN: 999.6gal

Citation Mustang (1269nm range, 336kts, 540pph, 4 stops):
Time: 14.88hrs
Fuel stop time: 4hrs
TOTAL TIME: 18.88hrs
FUEL BURN: 1199.28gal

Pilatus PC12NG (1800nm range, 278kts, 360pph, 3 stops):
Time: 17.98hr
Fuel stop time: 3hrs
TOTAL TIME: 21hrs
FUEL BURN: 971gal

Piaggio Avanti (1398nm range, 364kt, 580pph, 4 stops):
Time: 13.73hrs
Fuel stop time: 4hrs
TOTAL TIME: 17.73hrs
FUEL BURN: 1188gal.

CJ4 (1800nm, 420kts, 1000pph, 3 stops):
Time: 11.9hrs
Fuel stop time: 3hrs
TOTAL TIME: 14.9hrs
FUEL BURN: 1776gal

CJ3 (1345nm, 408kts, 1096pph, 4 stops):
Time: 12.25hrs
Fuel stop time: 4hrs
Total time: 16.25hrs
Fuel burn: 2003gal.

Now, fuel is all I've accounted for here, so that's just part of the cost. Engine reserves are however a lot lower than on Williams engines (which most seem to have). By a factor of 1.5-1.8, pretty much. The Avanti has a few high cost gotchas - one is the gear overhaul every 12th year/6000hr (not mandatory part 91) and the carbon brakes are rally costly (they're introducing a steel brake option soon via STC). It's also got a few timed items, but so does jets. It needs C and D checks once in awhile. Not earth shattering, but certainly more than an annual or yearly phase inspections.

If efficiency is your criteria (total fuel burn/kts):
1. Avanti (3.26gal/kts)
2. Commander (3.32gal/kts)
3. PC12NG (3.49gal/kts)
4. Mustang (3.56gal/kts)
5. CJ4 (4.22gal/kts)

Avanti has them all beat in efficiency (fuel burn/kts) - even the PC12.

Only item I will add there is the following. The PC12 at MAX cruise power settings only has a 1600NM no wind range. I would also add that the PC12 should be set at 270-275 TAS as that is what I usually get. Fuel flow is between 340 and 360 at altitude.

So the next thing to understand are the annuals and engine stuff. The rest is easy to calculate........

Oh, man...they really are polar opposites. My Skymaster is slow and noisy on the inside; the Avanti is stupid fast and noisy on the outside.

The $650/hr P180. I'd love to see that. Will it achieve these numbers while being towed by the $380/hr PC-12?

I take C&D as a baseline, normally an over-exaggerated one, but they factor in all costs including crew/refurbishment etc.

As you can tell by the hours/times above the PC12 is slower than a jet, but I'm not sure that the positives on the Jet outweigh the positives on the PC12...........The Avanti is interesting. If Adam can prove we can run it for $650/hr, we're gonna start a whole new class warfare on BT.........

I think it's impossible to run for $650/hr. But maybe $1000/hr.

Problem with exotic newer planes is that you're pretty much confined to service centers. It's hard to find an old crusty veteran with a ratty hangar that will wrench on an Avanti. Much easier to do on a Commander. Just to give you an idea, my Commander guru charges $45/hr. I have not seen a single service center charge less than $110/hr. Right there you've tripled your costs, almost.

DAMMO, I'm back to the CJ2+/CJ3 then..........

DAMMO, I'm back to the CJ2+/CJ3 then..........

Just got off the phone with an owner in the NorCal area - he finally called me back. He's pretty new to the P180 and had a PC12 before. He loves it, says he's had no real maintenance issues or surprises yet in the 18 months he's owned it. He has an ex-Avantair mechanic in Sacramento that services his and he says he's pretty hands-on owner who approaches maintenance pragmatically. Said the factory has really improved their support and service over the last years.

He said the 150hr checks, A, recently were extended to 200hrs by factory. Cost him $6K to do last time, so that's like an annual (lot less than on many planes I've owned). He also had a recent D check (every 3600hrs) done, and when I said "that's about 80K, right?" he answered "nooo, it's a lot less. I paid about $40K for mine". So that was encouraging to hear.

He did say the carbon brakes are very expensive at about $40K, but that Parker Aerospace has just released steel brakes for them that reduce cost by 70%.

He said door seal got replaced and still leaks, which was his only gripe. I asked how much the seal was, and he said $1K. That's about the same as for a Commander. Should be an easy fix. Apparently it's quite common problem on these and Learjet's (they share door design).

Anyway, here's a clip from the Forward Wing newsletter from the factory that mentions the new brakes, if anyone's interested. I have the full newsletters I can send and I also have a list of all the timed items and limits on these I can PM should anyone be so inclined.

I'm listening, catch me now before I go all electric

Sell that slow poke you got and start arriving in style, Penman! Or, as the slogan says: Fly Different.

Sell that slow poke you got and start arriving in style, Penman! Or, as the slogan says: Fly Different.

If you sold, excluding this thread, what planes are you considering? Citations?

CJ3, Phenom does not offer me enough 'more' bang for the buck........

Time permitting and if I can stop posting on BT, I'm gonna do a cost comparison........interestingly the depreciation of the PC12 was inline with my expectations.......that's the number we have to figure out on the Avanti II and the CJ3