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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2021, 18:57 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
No question on time either. My last flight in my TBM was through widespread nasty weather like that or worse over much of the west on a trip from the west coast to OKC. It took 5.5 hours with all the dodging and weaving. I'd have been over all of it at FL350 in the Piaggio and saved 2 hours.

I very occasionally am in the the tops between Fl350-and 370 where I normally fly but have only been unable to escape it at FL400-410 once or twice and then only for a little while.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2021, 19:30 
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Michael - with the legs you do, 400kts ain't going to give it to you in a P180. I think 350kts is more realistic for longer legs. On the other hand, what is passenger comfort worth? The CJ3 cabin size is cramped compared to the Avanti. Even a Citation X is smaller!

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2021, 17:31 
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I’ve noticed a couple of comments about what the market is doing in terms of price….we’ve sold a couple this year and are helping another client purchase a new Evo for delivery next year. Based on our current IADA (International Aircraft Dealer Assoc.) data, the overall trend in preowned values has been up 20-30% and the total preowned markets availability are down to 5%, which is historically low. With the P180, the challenge is always that only a handful of buyers surface annually, and there are some types (ex-Avantair) as well as maintenance specifics like Gear and Engine OH cost etc. that will push against the trend. All that said, for an Avanti or Avanti II that has no serious negatives, I would expect that a minimum of 15% is possible. But- in this business things could change tomorrow. Happy to discuss the P180 market or specific aircraft with any of you offline at your convenience.

Bryon Mobley
Wetzel Aviation, Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 00:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’ve noticed a couple of comments about what the market is doing in terms of price….we’ve sold a couple this year and are helping another client purchase a new Evo for delivery next year. Based on our current IADA (International Aircraft Dealer Assoc.) data, the overall trend in preowned values has been up 20-30% and the total preowned markets availability are down to 5%, which is historically low. With the P180, the challenge is always that only a handful of buyers surface annually, and there are some types (ex-Avantair) as well as maintenance specifics like Gear and Engine OH cost etc. that will push against the trend. All that said, for an Avanti or Avanti II that has no serious negatives, I would expect that a minimum of 15% is possible. But- in this business things could change tomorrow. Happy to discuss the P180 market or specific aircraft with any of you offline at your convenience.

Bryon Mobley
Wetzel Aviation, Inc.


Bryon, I think it was you who told me a few years back that the customer for an Avanti is already turned onto them and are in the market for Avantis - it's virtually impossible to turn someone looking for a King Air etc onto an Avanti. But maybe this thread has shown that it might be changing... :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 07:30 
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I was in the market for a Cheyenne IIXL or maybe a King Air 200 or possibly a TBM 850.
More comfortable in twins. Cheyenne or King Air only 20-30 knots faster than my Aerostar.

Then found thread here.
Thanks Adam and Anthony!
Only took me a couple weeks to decide....why not.
When I was going to look at my now Avanti my wife said.

"Brad, I didn't even know you were looking at this plane 3 weeks ago"

Me: "I wasn't looking three weeks ago"

My 2007 Avanti cost roughly 35-40% of what a 2007 Pilatus sells for.

Downsides:
Cost a little more per hour to operate and the biggest risk which is the reason for the bargain price....

I might be AOG for a month or 3 waiting on a part sometime in the next five years. I happen to think unlikely and willing to risk it.

The upsides....OH BOY!!

I would not have purchased this airplane at a price of one million higher...very very worth it though.

NO WAY I WOULD SELL MINE FOR ONE MILLION MORE THAN I PAID FOR IT

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 10:04 
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Maybe all us Avanti fans should pool our money and buy Piaggio if the current bid fails. I am Italian enough to qualify for a passport so I am sure we can convince the govt to let us buy :)

Garmin panel and AP and partner with Socata in some way for dealer support and you have a real contender.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 11:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe all us Avanti fans should pool our money and buy Piaggio if the current bid fails. I am Italian enough to qualify for a passport so I am sure we can convince the govt to let us buy :)

Garmin panel and AP and partner with Socata in some way for dealer support and you have a real contender.


Perfect step-up for TBM 940 owners. Love this plan. Always wanted to do this with Textron's legacy beech line.

-J

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 12:04 
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Improvements (and fixes in disguise). Some already available.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... wBUa3mJwX4


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2021, 14:20 
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Joined: 01/21/14
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe all us Avanti fans should pool our money and buy Piaggio if the current bid fails. I am Italian enough to qualify for a passport so I am sure we can convince the govt to let us buy :)

Garmin panel and AP and partner with Socata in some way for dealer support and you have a real contender.

Boy I had the means I’d jump in on this buy :bow: ,
BUT….. we have to have some PL21 panels :woot:
(I haven’t flown FUSION yet :scratch: )


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 03:07 
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https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... wBUa3mJwX4

Great picture!

But the article does not mention if the currently installed Collins Pro Line 21 avionics suite will be upgraded to FUSION or Garmin G3000 ?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 03:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
But the article does not mention if the currently installed Collins Pro Line 21 avionics suite will be upgraded to FUSION or Garmin G3000 ?

PL21 is still there.

As you may remember, Fusion was installed on the MPA derivative.
Plans were to transition to the P.180 but everything is frozen:

viewtopic.php?p=2639514#p2639514
Hope Piaggio will not wait until the system becomes obsolete... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 08:05 
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Got it.

Fusion keeps most, if not all, PL21 components. Basically only new displays and interface.

G3000 would make more sense IMO. New WXR, new AP, etc. And much lighter.

Could the certification be completed under FAA rules, and then, by reciprocity to EASA? Would that be faster and less onerous?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 08:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Got it.

Fusion keeps most, if not all, PL21 components. Basically only new displays and interface.

G3000 would make more sense IMO. New WXR, new AP, etc. And much lighter.

Could the certification be completed under FAA rules, and then, by reciprocity to EASA? Would that be faster and less onerous?


Although most PL21 LRU are kept, defining the Fusion "only new displays and interface" is a bit reductive... many SW functionalities are even not available on the previous system.

I agree that the weight savings are minimal.
New AP certification is expensive and the company has a long term relationship with Collins, but who knows...

Being Piaggio an EASA DOA and the P.180 an EASA TC, EASA certification always come first, regardless of the avionics that will be eventually selected (if any).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 08:18 
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Username Protected wrote:

Being Piaggio an EASA DOA and the P.180 an EASA TC, EASA certification always come first, regardless of the avionics that will be eventually selected (if any).


Plus, EASA certification is much quicker than FAA certification these days. The smart ones get EASA first then the FAA has to certify it due to the reciprocity agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2021, 09:53 
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Honestly, for me, the Collins systems are the biggest negative of the Piaggio Avanti's right after the uncertainty of the corporate parent's future and potential for subsequent supply chain issues.

The cost differential of the Collins systems in both hardware, repair, and recurring subscription costs versus the Garmin is about the biggest dichotomy out there. From the subscription side of the equation they are at least 10x the cost of Garmin, and from the hardware side, I don't have any first hand experience, but I am hearing similar multiples, or more.

The fact that IJS and Joe has the G1000 certified for the Avanti I and hopefully will get it for the II has brought the Avanti into the consideration column.

Cheers!


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