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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 14:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
$41,770.40 for a new circuit board controller and all's good again.


HO-LEE-BENJAMINS, Batman.

I think I'll stick to being a spectator in this game...

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 14:23 
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Joined: 12/19/09
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Username Protected wrote:
$41,770.40 for a new circuit board controller and all's good again.


HO-LEE-BENJAMINS, Batman.

I think I'll stick to being a spectator in this game...

That’s what I thought when I read that too!
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Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 14:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Why not keep the Mits and charter a light jet when you want to go faster/farther? …. The only enhancement you can achieve is something with more capacity. …. Sorry to be sensible.

Well… this remains a strong possible outcome. I’m unlikely to charter, as a huge part of the motivation is the inherent enjoyment of the whole aviation process. But it could be I just stick with the Mits for a while longer. No apologies needed for being sensible.

That said, I could use a bit more capacity in that my kids have grown, one is soon to be married and the other has a serious girlfriend, and there are more dogs around (mine and my kids’). So on occasion it would be nice to be able to get more in the plane.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 14:52 
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You're at a turning point on the hedonic treadmill.

I get that. I try to not over analyze. If I can afford to and want to… well, sometimes that’s enough. But part of the fun in life is figuring out whether something is doable and/or how to make it happen.

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-Jon C.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 14:55 
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Username Protected wrote:
$41,770.40 for a new circuit board controller and all's good again.


HO-LEE-BENJAMINS, Batman.

I think I'll stick to being a spectator in this game...

Yeah, even if you can rationally know it’s all just part of playing the game, it still stings a bit!
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-Jon C.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 17:19 
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
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I’m really surprised to hear that the Piaggios can land and takeoff with nearly the same runway requirements as an MU-2. I’ve watched them takeoff and it appears they have a “laminar flow wing” type of departure: lots of runway initially, low climb rate over runway, and then after they pick up speed, very high rate of climb. But perhaps that was just the pilot’s elected technique. It reminded me a bit of the Aerostar.
The MU-2 seems to land far shorter than even our C-90 A King Airs, especially at full flaps with a reasonable speed (like a speed originally called for in the design, not the “new and improved” approach speed for full flaps). Takeoff is closer to the same with the C90 clean and the MU-2 at 20deg.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 19:21 
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:

- short field capability, how bad is it? Home base has 2600’ runway. Does reverse work well? It seems like it’s be better than small jet in that regard, but also sounds like you guys are not pressing the short field. Would it work?

- along those lines, what’s Vref? Vr? Sounds like higher than MU2?



Jon,

Using my flight planning app (P180 eAFM) I did take off calcs for KSQL for current conditions: winds calm, 17C OAT and take off weight of 11,481 (3 on board, 25 lbs tare weight, 125 lbs in luggage and 2,800 lbs of fuel). Dry pavement. Ground roll is 2440, T/O distance is 2908, Acc/Stop is 4735, Acc/Go is 5,086. Flying to KPWA (about 1200 NM) at 1300 feet MSL, +25C OAT, 21 knots headwind, full flaps, Vref117 Ground roll is 1179 and landing distance 2153.

Pretty skinny fall flight. Load take off weight to 12,011 lbs. take off ground roll goes to 2781 at V1 of 117 and take off distance is 3399. Acc/Stop is 6702, Acc/Go is 7606. On a 30C day ground roll is 3009, t/o distance 3665.

A more typical day might be 27C with wind 10 knots down the pipe so ground roll is only 2737 and t/o distance is 3346. Coming back from KPWA under those conditions and landing at 9,800 lbs your ground roll is 1216, landing distance 2213, Vref 117.

I think the sensible answer to your question is no.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 22:32 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Tony - “P180 eAFM” app. Is this a real thing? Or tongue in cheek “I pulled out the book”?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 23:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony - “P180 eAFM” app. Is this a real thing? Or tongue in cheek “I pulled out the book”?


It's a real thing. It's somewhat pricey compared to other aircraft specific apps I've purchased ($200 I think) but significantly less expensive than the commercial service some 135 operators use. It works very well and has a very high fidelity to the AFM.

It works with a I or a II. You select. In the aircraft set up page you put in your Moment (or ARM), BEW, select MTOW, Max fuel, Engines (66 or 66B) and units of measure.

You begin with departure and destination airports after putting in your aircraft specific information (once). After selecting done it asks you to verify the distance of the flight. You then go to the airports page and refresh weather and it pulls in the current metar. You then select the appropriate runway and add slope, RWY Dry, Wet or Contaminated as and if required. It has already preloaded the wind and temperature.

The app calculates Headwind, Crosswind, ISA deviation, etc. Click "done".

Selecting the W&B page you enter the weights at each station on the loading form. The app is set up with the standard interior configuration of sofa, jump seat, forward cabinet, lav and closet. Enter fuel and baggage weights. The app shows a W&B graph and lists BEW and Arm, Dry operating weight, operating weight, Total load, Payload, Zero Fuel Weight, Remaining Load Capacity, Remaining Fuel Capacity, Ramp Weight, Take off weight, Take of Arm. Click done.

Then you go to the performance page where you have sections for Take Off Distance, Climb Performance, Cruise and Descent Performance and Landing Distance. Max Range, Recommended Cruis and Max Cruise performance is selectable in cruise section. You can choose anti ice on/off on Climb Performance. You select Flaps position for landing, icing or no icing equipment on, reverse or no reverse.

In take off performance you get ground roll, take off distance, acc/stop, acc/go, TOR Required, 1st Seg. final seg. V1, V2, Vfr, TO torque. In Climb performance you have time to climb, fuel to climb, distance to climb. In Cruise and Descent Performance you have Descent time (based on cruise altitude selected and destination elevation), fuel to descent, distance to descent, Cruise time, Fuel used, Fuel flow, TAS, Prop RPM, Torque limit. IN Landing you have ground roll, landing distance, LD Required and Vref.

The Overview page shows the loading form at top, the W&B detail and graph and then a summary of Takeoff, Climb and Descent, Cruise and Landing numbers.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2021, 23:32 
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Thanks. Somehow I missed it my app search earlier. Found it!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2021, 14:12 
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That said, I could use a bit more capacity in that my kids have grown, one is soon to be married and the other has a serious girlfriend, and there are more dogs around (mine and my kids’). So on occasion it would be nice to be able to get more in the plane.

Marquise?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2021, 22:52 
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Was perusing Avanti II “Specifications and Description” document. Noticed they list Vso in landing configuration (which I assume is full flaps) as 93 KIAS. Is that correct? Stall speed is 93 kts?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2021, 23:01 
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Tony- I get around 1800ft ground roll for conditions you mentioned.

Maybe I traced lines wrong though. On phone nkt iPad.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2021, 23:05 
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1300nm today in a shade over 3 hrs. 70kt tailwind really makes this thing rip. 1780lbs burned.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2021, 23:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony- I get around 1800ft ground roll for conditions you mentioned.

Maybe I traced lines wrong though. On phone nkt iPad.

Thanks Anthony. If I read that chart correctly, at sea level, 30C day, 11500 takeoff weight, no wind, ground roll says about 2200’. That’s not terrible for that warm.

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