28 Mar 2024, 07:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 30 Nov 2017, 15:11 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5519 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: As long as we are blue sky dreaming, Adam can you give a quick rundown on the significant model year changes? What distinguishes “early” from “later”, what years had changes in avionics or engines, that sort of thing.
Looks like there are Avanti and Avanti II and Evo variants - what are the distinctions? Avanti (later referred to I to distinguish) was built between 1990 and 2006, I think. Avanti II built from 2007 until now, when the Evo took over. Major difference is that the Avanti has Pro Line II cockpit and semi-steam (easier upgrade to ADS-B). It's also got the straight -66 engines. The Avanti II came with the Proline 21 suite (more costly to upgrade to ADS-B) and had the upgraded -66B engines that produce more power higher up. The Avanti I will only do about 380kts, tops. The Avanti II has a speed advantage and they'll do 400-405kts in ideal solutions. Otherwise they're pretty much identical mechanically. Evo has re-designed engine nacelle and outlets, new props, winglets and new gear and some other stuff. Unfortunately, they're still stuck with the PL21, which many think is a bit outdated for a brand new plane of this caliber. The Evo gear is available as a retrofit on the Avanti II. 420gal of fuel in total, which, as someone said, is in reality a little short. If you get straight climbs, you might be able to put the low fuel burn to use and get good range, but in most scenarios this is probably more like a 1000nm plane, with healthy IFR reserves. All of them are available with an aux fuel tank of 60gal that takes the space of the closet. It's a costly mod, so few have them. Here's how one owner plans fuel his burn in two different ways: First way1st hour 800lbs 2nd hour 700 lbs 3rd hour 600 lbs 4th hour 500 lbs Second Way1st hour 800lbs Every hour after 600 lbs
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 01 Dec 2017, 23:10 |
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Joined: 07/04/11 Posts: 1712 Post Likes: +242 Company: W. John Gadd, Esq. Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
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Username Protected wrote: Lol, really? the argument is, "my airplane doesn't work well when I fly it too often"? Are you familiar with the expression, "GTFO"? That's rubbish. I know very little about the Piagio other than it looks cool, goes far very high and fast, and likes runway, but this business about it not being able to be run often is bullshit. Properly engineered airplanes run BETTER when flown often.
Also, Dowty/Rotol can suck it. 100K for landing gear on a calendar? Ha. You're nuts if you give them a thin dime. This is the same type of gouging crapola they pull on Turbo Commanders.
Sexy or not, you'd be nuts to run this bird. It's very cool, but it's a toy, not reliable, economical transport if the numbers are to be believed.
Speaking of being realistic and Turbo Commander MX, you flying that "bargain" Commander yet Adam? That thing is fast- I bet you're loving it! Fly often. It's cheaper.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 09 Dec 2017, 17:21 |
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Joined: 05/10/09 Posts: 987 Post Likes: +262 Location: KBDR Bridgeport, CT
Aircraft: V35
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Username Protected wrote: ... If I was a rich guy I'd be flying in the back of a G5 and I wouldn't know what BT is. So what would you do with all that extra free time you'd have from not BeechTalking???
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 09 Dec 2017, 17:28 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26431 Post Likes: +13064 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: ... If I was a rich guy I'd be flying in the back of a G5 and I wouldn't know what BT is. So what would you do with all that extra free time you'd have from not BeechTalking??? I'd still Beechtalk. It's just that all the really rich jet owners I know would never know what BT is.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 12 Dec 2017, 17:21 |
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Joined: 10/14/14 Posts: 1732 Post Likes: +1896 Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
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In April of 2016 we recovered a very nice, very low time, late model P180 from the runway after a gear problem. We wound up making a temporary belly skin for the aircraft and ferrying gear down to a service center for repair. Total Repair cost will likely get close to 2M, Delay on parts and engineering will likely push the completion of this task beyond April 2018. Two years!
It would take a pretty strong budget to be paying for an unusable asset for two years no matter how zoomy and efficient it may be when it does fly.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 01:47 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5519 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: In April of 2016 we recovered a very nice, very low time, late model P180 from the runway after a gear problem. We wound up making a temporary belly skin for the aircraft and ferrying gear down to a service center for repair. Total Repair cost will likely get close to 2M, Delay on parts and engineering will likely push the completion of this task beyond April 2018. Two years!
It would take a pretty strong budget to be paying for an unusable asset for two years no matter how zoomy and efficient it may be when it does fly. Sounds like a nightmare, for sure. But it also sounds a little like someone isn't managing the repair very well. It's an aluminum skinned airframe (for the most part), you could have a compound panel beat out manually for a lot less money, I'm guessing. But maybe there are structural problems that need special parts. On another note, here are some performance scans from POH. As you can see, the aircraft reaches its highest speeds around 28000ft. Also notable is the max range FF's at high altitudes - pretty good fuel economy per nm and more range than I thought.
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_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 17:42 |
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Joined: 11/06/14 Posts: 215 Post Likes: +101
Aircraft: 737
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Anyone here interested in this magazine? I have a ton of Flying, P n P, Air Progress mags from the 70’s thru 90’s. It hurts to toss them. Any ideas on what to do with them?
Ben
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 18:34 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5519 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Anyone here interested in this magazine? I have a ton of Flying, P n P, Air Progress mags from the 70’s thru 90’s. It hurts to toss them. Any ideas on what to do with them?
Ben I'd love the ones you might have with the P180 or any Turbo Commander! Please PM me and I'll pay for the shipping.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 19:55 |
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Joined: 10/14/14 Posts: 1732 Post Likes: +1896 Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
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Username Protected wrote: In April of 2016 we recovered a very nice, very low time, late model P180 from the runway after a gear problem. We wound up making a temporary belly skin for the aircraft and ferrying gear down to a service center for repair. Total Repair cost will likely get close to 2M, Delay on parts and engineering will likely push the completion of this task beyond April 2018. Two years!
It would take a pretty strong budget to be paying for an unusable asset for two years no matter how zoomy and efficient it may be when it does fly. Sounds like a nightmare, for sure. But it also sounds a little like someone isn't managing the repair very well. It's an aluminum skinned airframe (for the most part), you could have a compound panel beat out manually for a lot less money, I'm guessing. But maybe there are structural problems that need special parts. On another note, here are some performance scans from POH. As you can see, the aircraft reaches its highest speeds around 28000ft. Also notable is the max range FF's at high altitudes - pretty good fuel economy per nm and more range than I thought.
When outside the scope of the SRM ( structural repair manual ) if you want to maintain the highest resale value, you rely on the manufactures engineering. Piaggio is dictating the repair scheme and supplying parts. Impressive airplane supported by a very unimpressive manufacturer.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 02 Feb 2018, 02:37 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5519 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Killer paint scheme.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 02 Feb 2018, 08:14 |
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Joined: 05/10/09 Posts: 987 Post Likes: +262 Location: KBDR Bridgeport, CT
Aircraft: V35
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Quote: Order an inspection from WeGoLook | Learn More Wonder what they charge for a prebuy?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 19 Aug 2018, 18:19 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Adam,
Did you ever figure out a total operating cost for the Avanti?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 19 Aug 2018, 20:23 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5519 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Adam,
Did you ever figure out a total operating cost for the Avanti? Not down to the penny, no. But it's in the $1000/hr range, roughly. If I were to own one down the line personally, I'd opt not to do the gear overhaul every 12 year, just service the gear thoroughly (as you can do part 91). I'd also look at running the engines over TBO - since talking to quite a few Pratt brokers, and getting a good picture of the costs of the -66 engines - that seems like a good compromise. Doing those two things would probably reduce your operating costs quite considerably, and you might be able to get down to $700-800/hr, wild guess.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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