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19 Apr 2024, 21:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 12:58 
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Certainly impressive fuel economy and full fuel payload.

One potential concern would be engine out performance.
The Baron maxed out has 600 hp hauling 5,500 pounds; 9.17 lbs/hp
The DA62 maxed out has 360 hp hauling 5,071 pounds; 14.09 lbs/hp

DA62 is at a 54% disadvantage in 2 engine hp to weight.
With one engine, and the nearly 80% loss in climb performance, would it be a cause for concern trying to move 5,000# on 180hp?

Also, pretty big difference in wingspans. Baron is 37'10"; DA62 is 47'10"... ten feet longer.
Will it fit in a standard T-hangar? How will the glider-like-wing perform in bumpy weather?

We looked hard at the Diamond but ultimately went with the Baron. Felt it was a more capable traveler. The DA62 will, or has certainly found a market. But for piston twin travel in the Northeast, still think that the Baron has an edge.

That being said, looks like the DA62 is outselling the G58. Ref a prior post, I don't think that Beech has a Baron production bottleneck... more of a sales drought.

Beech could learn a lot from both Diamond and Cirrus in terms of incremental changes that make a difference. Not sure if it would be prohibitive to widen the cabin a bit for more room up front. But they certainly could add things like proper harness belts up front and/or airbag belts all around. What about lighting upgrades? Cirrus and Diamond have a number of interior feature that Beech should look at hard, so that it has a more modern appearance and functionality, rather than Fred McMurray's airplane.


Last edited on 24 Jun 2018, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:06 
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I’d like to start a new thread but maybe not worth it.

Between the SF50, DA62 and $900k G1000 Mustangs I don’t see a long term path for Avgas burners. Every entry level position is being filled with those 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’d like to start a new thread but maybe not worth it.

Between the SF50, DA62 and $900k G1000 Mustangs I don’t see a long term path for Avgas burners. Every entry level position is being filled with those 3.


You do pose an good question about Avgas & future. Also about desirability, but not sure of feasibility, of smaller diesel or turbine based GA planes.

But...

Jason, not sure that "entry level" is $1mm to $2+mm. For a large portion of GA, entry level is well south of those numbers for pre-owned pistons. If entry level for GA is, or will become $1mm and up, then the downward trend in pilot #s and GA will likely accelerate to a place that no one will like.


Last edited on 24 Jun 2018, 13:11, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’d like to start a new thread but maybe not worth it.

Between the SF50, DA62 and $900k G1000 Mustangs I don’t see a long term path for Avgas burners. Every entry level position is being filled with those 3.


“Entry level” :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:11 
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A new SR22 is “entry level”

The used will be cheaper and filter down over time. There will be cheap SF50s and DA62s.


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:18 
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The used market and new market have some overlap but are probably on average pretty far apart in expendable income. Probably similar to the new and used car or boat market. For those wanting to buy new, there are a lot of nice options. Beech and Cessna has not been willing to keep up with Cirrus, Diamond, Piper, Socata, or any of the other OEMS still selling large dollars of new aircraft.

I was at an aviation expo yesterday, and asked the Textron sales (I know they are just sales and not management) why they don't certify a FIKI turbocharged Bonanza or Turbocharged Baron with some incremental improvements. They said certification would be too expensive. Really?? Well how is delivering the same old G36 and G58's working out?

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:24 
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Texturing doesn’t want to be in Avgas burners because the writing has been on the wall

What Cirrus and Diamond are doing is next level. Not something a big company like Textron would gamble on.


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Beech and Cessna has not been willing to keep up with Cirrus, Diamond, Piper, Socata, or any of the other OEMS still selling large dollars of new aircraft.

I was at an aviation expo yesterday, and asked the Textron sales (I know they are just sales and not management) why they don't certify a FIKI turbocharged Bonanza or Turbocharged Baron with some incremental improvements. They said certification would be too expensive. Really?? Well how is delivering the same old G36 and G58's working out?


Spot on ...
The Diamond DA62 is NOT the Baron killer. Textron management are the Baron killer.

Bonanza, while a great airframe, is a single with lots of upgraded competition as folks have pointed out. Baron is the most capable piston twin available. But with lack of investment, lack of marketing, lack of effort is selling its benefits against the competition, the end game is pre-determined.

One can only believe that the margins and economics of selling turbo-props and jets swamp the economics in the piston world. So that is where Textron is focusing. Folks who only have pistons, or non turbo singles or twins to offer, have to figure out how to make & sell them profitably. The proof is in the pudding, or the market. Just a shame....


Last edited on 24 Jun 2018, 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 13:36 
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Last edited on 24 Jun 2018, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 14:01 
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DA62 is awesome. 3 row, 7 passenger seating, insane fuel economy burning jetA. Fills a nice niche between high performance single and a turboprop. Much better buy than a G36, imho.

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 14:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
DA62 is awesome. 3 row, 7 passenger seating, insane fuel economy burning jetA. Fills a nice niche between high performance single and a turboprop. Much better buy than a G36, imho.

I'd say "much better than anything new piston currently offered".


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 14:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
DA62 is awesome. 3 row, 7 passenger seating, insane fuel economy burning jetA. Fills a nice niche between high performance single and a turboprop. Much better buy than a G36, imho.

I'd say "much better than anything new piston currently offered".


In the piston world, It is certainly a nice plane, but the Single engine Cirrus and M350 smoke it in almost every performance measure. Both are 210+ KTAS 25,000 foot FIKI aircraft with or without pressurization. So unless you need a twin, if you grade it by performance and utility, it is certainly not at the top of the pack. Could include Mooney in there, pulling for them, but not looking great fat this time.
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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 14:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

In the piston world, It is certainly a nice plane, but the Single engine Cirrus and M350 smoke it in almost every performance measure. Both are 210+ KTAS 25,000 foot FIKI aircraft with or without pressurization. So unless you need a twin, if you grade it by performance and utility, it is certainly not at the top of the pack. Could include Mooney in there, pulling for them, but not looking great fat this time.

Nobody flies those planes at FL250. I've owned 2 of them.

No doubt the Mooney and Cirrus are nice but they burn Avgas. JetA is a big big motivator.


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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 15:21 
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JetA, more spacious on less total fuel and way less fuel cost considering the price delta jetA vs avgas... and it's a twin. :deadhorse: recent note from a friend...

Quote:
Thought you might want to know I had an engine failure in a light piston twin yesterday (DA-42, N506SK). Solo, at night, in IMC, 10 nm abeam EWE/Newark, with everything below at quarter mile vis / 200 ft ceiling at 50 planes conga lines into NY area. The only thing that makes this MORE of cliche is that I was on my way to FSI for a recurrent !

All good, flew about half an hour further away to Allentown, which had 700' ft ceiling, an open tower, trucks, FBO the works. Plane was just out of major mx (2,000 hours), just flown back from factory in Canada same day, V-ribbed Belt croaked in 5 hours (?!). Got an alternator amber then overtemp/coolant within 30 secs, just shut it down immediately. Looks like engine survived, should fly again on Sunday.

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 Post subject: Re: Diamond DA62 is the Baron killer
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 18:14 
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If it had just had a pressurized cabin, it would have been as close to perfect as they come...

Absolute dealbreaker for me personally.

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