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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 10:34 
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Thanks for the info James. Sounds like folks are on the right track. There were some on here advocating other fighter and even large bombers for CAS. That's where I was in disagreement. Not saying others can't be useful at times, but that's not what many consider CAS.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 14:13 
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Thanks for the info James. Sounds like folks are on the right track. There were some on here advocating other fighter and even large bombers for CAS. That's where I was in disagreement. Not saying others can't be useful at times, but that's not what many consider CAS.


I by no means am a CAS expert but I have spent a lot of time studying it and have helped develop some strategy towards procuring the next generation CAS aircraft. I really believe in a cost effective solution that can operate in a permissive environment. The new light attack aircraft was needed a long time ago because we can't keep spending a quarter million dollars by having an F-15E dropping a hundred thousand dollar bomb on a dude with an AK-47 long term. I love the A-10 but it bothers me how dismissive non-informed public opinion is of other Air Force combat aviation. We WILL need aircraft like the F-22 and the F-35 for our future wars. We can't not invest in our future. A squadron of F-22s parked off of the Chinese coast is more of a deterrent than a carrier battle group these days. The F-22s are tough to defeat while the boats are right there in plain view. Now imagine the F-35, which is like the iPhone today while the F-22 is the flip phone of the mid 2000s. Mix that up with our 4th gen airplanes and you have quite a potent force. I'll finish with this final point. If America wants to continue fighting these long-term wars then America better be ready to write the check. War isn't cheap. We expend our most precious treasures and that is not always our hard earned tax payer dollars.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 14:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
We expend our most precious treasures and that is not always our hard earned tax payer dollars.

slight correction - we risk the lives of the youth of today, using money borrowed from the youth of tomorrow


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 14:38 
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We expend our most precious treasures and that is not always our hard earned tax payer dollars.

slight correction - we risk the lives of the youth of today, using money borrowed from the youth of tomorrow



And we don't get anything for it. A-29 is 20 years late. Oh wait we did have something like it years ago. They called it an A-37, and it was used much the same way.
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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 14:40 
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We expend our most precious treasures and that is not always our hard earned tax payer dollars.

slight correction - we risk the lives of the youth of today, using money borrowed from the youth of tomorrow


Truth
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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 14:42 
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And we don't get anything for it. A-29 is 20 years late. Oh wait we did have something like it years ago. They called it an A-37, and it was used much the same way.


I was going to go with the OV-10 as an example but the A-37 is another great example.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 15:51 
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And we don't get anything for it. A-29 is 20 years late. Oh wait we did have something like it years ago. They called it an A-37, and it was used much the same way.


I was going to go with the OV-10 as an example but the A-37 is another great example.


Isn't there a place in the desert the Air Force keeps old planes so they can be used in a time of war? Why don't they just go there and pull planes out and use those (A-37)? Didn't they just get done sending like 400 of them out there (T-37) a couple years ago?
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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 20:12 
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Maybe the USAF is onto something with this A-29 but I keep thinking of the AD-1 Skyraider. Could carry an impressive ordinance loadout, remain on station for ages and was so slow it could drop with pinpoint accuracy-no, wait a minute, that was it's problem. In a contested environment with SA missiles and radar controlled AAA it was highly vulnerable.

Restricted to a low threat surface to air environment over downed airmen it was highly effective. The problem is budgeting for mission specialized platforms in a defense plan where they may have to assign a higher priority to the high threat scenario. If the more capable and expensive platform can do the CAS mission but maybe not as effectively , you buy the more expensive one, no? As I understand it the A-10 may not be an F-35 but they ain't cheap either.


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 30 May 2017, 20:31 
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Maybe they just need a turboprop version of the Skyraider.


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 31 May 2017, 00:25 
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Isn't there a place in the desert the Air Force keeps old planes so they can be used in a time of war? Why don't they just go there and pull planes out and use those (A-37)? Didn't they just get done sending like 400 of them out there (T-37) a couple years ago?


I and many others in the Air Force looked at that except with the T-34. The T-34 sits too low to weaponize and getting parts for them long term is bleak. There are not enough T-37s at AMARC to do what the Air Force wants to do with light attack.

http://www.amarcexperience.com/ui/index ... Itemid=238

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 08:26 
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Maybe they just need a turboprop version of the Skyraider.

Piper Enforcer?


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 08:40 
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AF brass cooked the books to protect a pet project?
I'm shocked! Shocked, I say.


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 11:24 
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Maybe they just need a turboprop version of the Skyraider.

Piper Enforcer?


"Hey Bad Guy! Prepare to pay the Piper"

Man, those jokes just write themselves....

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 11:28 
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Just curious, with drone technology advancing so fast, why not advocate for cheap drones to take the CAS role? The reality is CAS tends to have the weapons platform exposed to enemy fire; generally rather close. Drones are perfect for this...


Tim


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 12:17 
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Just curious, with drone technology advancing so fast, why not advocate for cheap drones to take the CAS role? The reality is CAS tends to have the weapons platform exposed to enemy fire; generally rather close. Drones are perfect for this...


Tim


For those of us that have had our nuts on the line when under attack, CAS was eyes in the plane that could see the ground and the enemy and engage. When the ordinance gets close to the friendly troops, the attack aircraft being able to actually see friendly and enemy positions and communicate with the troops on the ground directly can make a huge difference. Don't know if drones could do that. I would think the remote operator would see some things through a camera, but don't know what their entire perspective would be. In many cases, we on the ground actually knew the folks supporting us in the air and it helped us communicate better. Second tour in the air, I actually knew how ground operations worked which was very helpful in supporting the guys on the ground. I guess the question is, can a drone platform carry the fuel to loiter and ordinance to engage and be operated remotely in as effective a manner.

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