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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 09:02 
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Thanks for the info James. Sounds like folks are on the right track. There were some on here advocating other fighter and even large bombers for CAS. That's where I was in disagreement. Not saying others can't be useful at times, but that's not what many consider CAS.

You would be surprised at what modern targeting systems allow. The A10 was designed for Vietnam, jammed into a role for the Fulda Gap, and stumbled into a low threat CAS scenario in the Middle East. The most successful tank plinkers in Desert Storm were F111s, iirc.
A10s were good at CAS because that is all the guys flying them did. More speed and power would make them better, and allow them more defensive capability. Right now they are pretty vulnerable in a high threat war.
A cheaper bomb truck for chasing guys in pickup trucks is a reasonable idea, but requires fielding a new airframe, it's associated support, and pilots, all for a very limited aircraft that is useless in a high intensity conflict. It is a tough set of fiscal choices, but the A10 doesn't make a lot of sense when other platforms can fill the CAS role. That congress has overridden the USAF on this is a victory of PR over common sense.
I flew the hog for three years, and in combat. Got warm feelings for it. But for a lot of reasons, it doesn't make sense any more.


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 15:55 
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" I don't like the idea of having Comgress telling the Air Force what aircraft they need to have, it sounds political. It is a great airplane but an old one too. I totally disagree with the notion that we should continue to fly and maintain 4th generation aircraft as the Air Force's long term strategy. All military branches need to modernize equipment over time and all airplanes fly into the history books"

...u might not like the idea of Congress telling the AF what aircraft they need for CAS--but the Army troops and the Marines on the grounds sure do

...I also disagree the we should continue and fly a 4th generation aircraft for CAS as a long term strategy...so do the Army troops and Marines on the ground....that's why we are anxiously awaiting the AF's long term strategy for the next generation CAS capable aircraft...so where the hell is it? ....tick tock

"Ask an Army Commander and see if they'd rather have an A-10 on station or a Reaper orbiting overhead hours on end. The A-10 will have to link up with the tanker every hour."


...your kidding? ...ask any Army Commander or Marine Corps Officer who has been on the ground and in the fight if they prefer the Hog over a drone? the Hog wins hands down every time

...btw, the A-10 wouldn't have to link up with a tanker if the AF would deploy it forward as it was designed to do...or better yet, attach it to Army maneuver units on the ground...

...for further reference please read my past posts on this topic with particular emphasis on the contributions of Pierre Sprey who would tell u that the Hog was never designed to be deployed in a scenario to link up with a tanker....it is, my friend designed to be deployed fwd with the troops/Marines in the fight....

"In 2015, B-1 bombers deployed 35% of all munitions dropped over a 6 month deployment on ISIS. So I'm not sure where you're getting your "facts" from"

...so what?...are u really trying to imply that cus the B-1 dropped "35%" of all munitions against ISIS that they were as effective as the Hog would have been otherwise...beuracratic goobleygook

...this is really a sad statistic, to be sure...if the AF would properly deploy the Hog fwd with troops/Marines in the fight wouldn't need our high speed supersonic nuclear capable bombers performing CAS...

"The Air Force is on it. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... tion-20675 "

...hardly...while indeed some interesting aircraft being contemplated for light attack aircraft in limited CAS scenarios by no means is this a proper substitute for developing the next generation CAS aircraft for other scenarios

...these aircraft being considered for CAS roles in very limited scenarios is the kind of let's pick off the shelf current aircraft and make it "fit" for the CAS role...sorry, but the Army troopers and Marines on the ground have seen this movie before, and it's a bad one...

"The A-10 is still a phenomenal platform but the cult following it has attracted thinks it can do anything, which is far from reality."

...straw man alert...who in the world ever said it could do "anything"...far from it and its limitations are well documented by current Hog drivers...

...but the "reality" is that in the current inventory it is the best CAS platform we have...

...and the larger question is of course--besides picking aircraft off the shelf, when will the AF get off its fourth point of contact and begin to develop the next generational CAS aircraft...and spare me the "we can't do that missions" in an environment if the bad guys are shooting at us...give me a break, cus the Hog pilots of the Cold War were damn sure ready to go into the fights...


Last edited on 08 Jun 2017, 18:50, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 15:58 
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" I really believe in a cost effective solution that can operate in a permissive environment."

. if only all future wars could be fought in a "permissive" environment....course the troops and Marines on the ground know better


Last edited on 08 Jun 2017, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 16:03 
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"The new light attack aircraft was needed a long time ago because we can't keep spending a quarter million dollars by having an F-15E dropping a hundred thousand dollar bomb on a dude with an AK-47 long term. "

...of course, the problem with the "new" attack aircraft is that they don't provide the capability of the HOG to support our fellow countrymen on the ground...cus there too "light"

...yea, glad the AF has wised up that we can't keep having a F-15 take out the dude with the AK-47...not to mention the supersonic bombers that u earlier quoted as to the AF's current "effectiveness" in providing the CAS with aircraft besides the Hog


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 16:11 
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"I by no means am a CAS expert but I have spent a lot of time studying it and have helped develop some strategy towards procuring the next generation CAS aircraft"

..if you want some help on developing some strategy on the next generation CAS aircraft may I suggest you look closely to the AF JTACs and talk with them about their contemporary experiences and what aircraft they want on station when things are tough...and, it will be the HOG or an aircraft similar thereof...not this "light" attack aircraft discussions...

...btw, don't here much from the JTAC community anymore bout the retention of the HOGS...AF Brass pretty much obviously read them the riot act


Last edited on 08 Jun 2017, 16:51, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 16:20 
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back by popular demand...Pierre Sprey--cus some apparently need it...you just gotta love this guy

_________________________
Pierre Sprey---"How the A-10 Warthog became 'the most survivable plane ever built'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEdy84YGf1k


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 16:49 
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and as Pierre Sprey says or words to that effect--for those aircraft performing a CAS mission shooting at people they are likely to be shot back at....and they need to be able to take a hit...and that's the problem--one of them--with the AF's off the shelf consideration of the so called CAS generational aircraft...they can't take a hit...so, ergo--the pilots won't be in the weeds with our fellow countrymen in the fight...


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 17:05 
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"In 2015, B-1 bombers deployed 35% of all munitions dropped over a 6 month deployment on ISIS. So I'm not sure where you're getting your "facts" from."

_____________________________
...as it pertains to the B-1 bombers effectiveness...

..."tell me again, what's 'so-forth'" classic

:popcorn:
Sen. McCain on the A-10: "... don't insult my intelligence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_up7IHd3LDs


Last edited on 08 Jun 2017, 18:55, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 17:09 
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Don,

TARGET, CEASE FIRE!!!!!!!

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Having COVID over Christmas SUCKS!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 17:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
"The new light attack aircraft was needed a long time ago because we can't keep spending a quarter million dollars by having an F-15E dropping a hundred thousand dollar bomb on a dude with an AK-47 long term. "

...of course, the problem with the "new" attack aircraft is that they don't provide the capability of the HOG to support our fellow countrymen on the ground...cus there too "light"

...yea, glad the AF has wised up that we can't keep having a F-15 take out the dude with the AK-47...not to mention the supersonic bombers that u earlier quoted as to the AF's current "effectiveness" in providing the CAS with aircraft besides the Hog


Nah, use a $5K drone (DoD inflation versus the commercial version for $500)

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 19:21 
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I thought the Marines had their own organic CAS capability which included deploying the Harrier in forward area, short field environments. That changed? Now they want the F35 for this mission. Are they all drunk on USAF coolaid? If my late father in law is any standard to judge by, I'd say probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 20:34 
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" I signed a deal for contract light attack services at Nellis AFB. Soon we'll having piston aircraft flying close air support to help with JTAC training."

it must be pretty damn exciting to be involved in that project... and your contributions are no doubt substantial... :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:10 
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Thanks for some of your input Don.
I was a grunt a long time ago that used a lot of CAS and called in airstrikes my second tour when I flew.
Reading Morison's book now on the taking of Iwo Jima in WWII. As you probably know, the enemy was in caves and underground. More ordinance was spent in advance of the assault than many much larger battles. It's one of the types of actions that caused CAS to be developed.
I don't understand all the AF's current capabilities, but I do know, all the way from WWII it was never a primary mission that peaked the AF's interest. It was never a career path or something top leaders say as the way for them to win the war. I do know, for a guy on the ground being attacked, or attacking when the enemy is dug in or hidden, there is nothing like CAS that can actually see the ground action and react.
I'll defer to the guys currently employing this, but the AF view has always been different from the grunt in actual contact that needs the support. Army support is great, but of course, more limited and more vulnerable. The Army really doesn't have the support and maintenance for something like an A-10 but the ground guys sure benefit from it.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 12:45 
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"Thanks for some of your input Don."

...thanks Dave, and I've always read your comments on CAS based on your experiences with great interest...btw, if your travels ever bring you to North Florida let me know because I'd like to sit down with you and record your story for the Veteran's History Project...I'm a participant the local chapter which is affiliated with the Congressional VHP...your recording would go to DC and be part of the Country's Archives...

...this is a tough subject and as well documented I don't have much respect for the AF on their CAS history...having said that, my views on the AF brass takes nothing away from the upmost respect I have of some of the Beechtalk military pilots I've got into the mix with on the topic including Ben, James, and others ...it goes without saying you guys are friggin awesome and great Americans ...I'm talking larger policy issues and realize I've probably pushed the boundaries for a GA forum like this...

....but in fairness to me, some of you dudes have been talking larger policy issues as well, and I'm not going to back down from calling out the AF on their indefensible stance on the Hog....or lack of adequate aircraft development to replace the HOG

....and, guess I've been too focused on my second life after the Army--but just when the hell did the AF come to the position that they will only conduct CAS in "permissive" environments?...wasn't like that during the height of the Cold War in the Fulda Gap--those Hog pilots would have gone up immediately if the WP had attacked...and, that would NOT have been a permissive environment--we would have been doing well just to have reached air parity and the proliferation of the WP antiaircraft weaponry deployed forward with their ground maneuver units would have been lethal


Last edited on 12 Jun 2017, 13:18, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: POGO Says: USAF Brass Cooked the Books to Ground the War
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2017, 12:58 
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