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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 00:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Pilatus “bings” and lights start flashing. Easy to detect.

And yet, pilots don't. Several airplanes with lights and dings have had such accidents. The most famous is Helios 522.

And there's a gear horn, and people land gear up.

And there's a stall horn, and people stall.

And so on.

We in aviation seem to think these problems are lack of input when a lot of the time it is lack of processing the validly presented input. So it was with Helios 522. Hypoxia prevents the brain from recognizing hypoxia.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 08:53 
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MC you ignored the part about “auto descend”.

Would also be cool if you could post up all the SETP rapid decompression events.

You’re also not answering my post about the Denali getting certification to FL310


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 08:56 
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Time to revive this old thread, now that Cirrus has proven that it can be done. The SF50 is certified and flying at FL 280, with rumors that Cirrus will take it higher. How did they succeed when several people on this thread cited FARs that such certification was impossible? What does Cirrus know that Mike C. doesn't?

Epic is planning to certify to FL 340, and Stratos FL 410. Can they do it? How high can they go, what is the real limit?

And this one


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 15:28 
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anything can be done with money, time, testing, more time, more money, and then get the Feds to agree to a change in certification criteria or make an exemption if blah blah blah is met. yada yada yada.

The ability of an A/P to auto descend to a safe altitude in the event of a cabin altitude exceedance(sp?) that is configured with some sort of Auto Throttles to keep the aircraft within it's aerodynamic limitations and not stalling, would overcome a pretty big obstacle of getting a hypoxic situation back to a less hostile cabin altitude where ones faculties can become useful again, if at all. Certainly would give one a chance to recover.


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 16:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
anything can be done with money, time, testing, more time, more money, and then get the Feds to agree to a change in certification criteria or make an exemption if blah blah blah is met. yada yada yada.

The ability of an A/P to auto descend to a safe altitude in the event of a cabin altitude exceedance(sp?) that is configured with some sort of Auto Throttles to keep the aircraft within it's aerodynamic limitations and not stalling, would overcome a pretty big obstacle of getting a hypoxic situation back to a less hostile cabin altitude where ones faculties can become useful again, if at all. Certainly would give one a chance to recover.

Been on TBM for a couple years now. Old hat.
http://www.tbm.aero/daher-presents-its- ... e-tbm-930/
Quote:
• An emergency descent mode (EDM) in the autopilot, which places the aircraft in automatic descent to a safe altitude of 15,000-ft. in the event of cabin depressurization and lack of pilot response; and
• New voice alerts – providing notification on stall, overspeed, landing gear status and oxygen mask use – which replace aural sounds for better warning identification.
With the TBM product line expansion, distinguishing differences between the TBM 900 and TBM 930 are concentrated on their primary avionics.
Daher’s Model Year 2016 TBM 900 retains the liquid crystal displays with Garmin’s G1000 avionics system – incorporating a pair of 10-inch screens and a multifunction display sized at 15 inches, along with a physical keyboard for navigation and communication functions.


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 16:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
anything can be done with money, time, testing, more time, more money, and then get the Feds to agree to a change in certification criteria or make an exemption if blah blah blah is met. yada yada yada.

The ability of an A/P to auto descend to a safe altitude in the event of a cabin altitude exceedance(sp?) that is configured with some sort of Auto Throttles to keep the aircraft within it's aerodynamic limitations and not stalling, would overcome a pretty big obstacle of getting a hypoxic situation back to a less hostile cabin altitude where ones faculties can become useful again, if at all. Certainly would give one a chance to recover.


Standard equipment on Piper M600.


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 19:46 
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I'm aware of the auto descend modes avail on the TBM and Meridian, Cirrus , but not versed in the details of how they operate. It would seem that these systems could defeat the emergency descent needs of high altitude rapid decompression undetected by the pilot.


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 22:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
anything can be done with money, time, testing, more time, more money, and then get the Feds to agree to a change in certification criteria or make an exemption if blah blah blah is met. yada yada yada.

The ability of an A/P to auto descend to a safe altitude in the event of a cabin altitude exceedance(sp?) that is configured with some sort of Auto Throttles to keep the aircraft within it's aerodynamic limitations and not stalling, would overcome a pretty big obstacle of getting a hypoxic situation back to a less hostile cabin altitude where ones faculties can become useful again, if at all. Certainly would give one a chance to recover.


Standard equipment on Piper M600.

Yup. Standard on Mustang, M2, CJ3+ as well. In the Mustang (and they all have their particular procedures), it still requires some pilot action to minimize the descent time. Throttles back, gear down, speedbrakes out. 2:20 from FL410 to 15,000.
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Last edited on 12 Dec 2018, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 22:21 
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I'm aware of the auto descend modes avail on the TBM and Meridian, Cirrus , but not versed in the details of how they operate. It would seem that these systems could defeat the emergency descent needs of high altitude rapid decompression undetected by the pilot.


Cirrus SR22 and M600 are based on a lack of input by the pilot or cabin pressure (M600).
They both have timers, if no input by the pilot after X minutes (I think fifteen), the PFD displays a warning message, you get a couple minutes to acknowledge the message which resets the clock or when the timer finishes the countdown it starts an automated descent. I believe it was around 5 degrees in the SR22 which even at full power in a turbo will keep you under VNE.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 13:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
MC you ignored the part about “auto descend”.

Would also be cool if you could post up all the SETP rapid decompression events.

You’re also not answering my post about the Denali getting certification to FL310

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/05/s ... fatal.html

https://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/Two ... 727-1.html

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... 784746001/

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... ombination

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12602449

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 14:10 
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Cirrus SR22 and M600 are based on a lack of input by the pilot or cabin pressure (M600).
They both have timers, if no input by the pilot after X minutes (I think fifteen), the PFD displays a warning message, you get a couple minutes to acknowledge the message which resets the clock or when the timer finishes the countdown it starts an automated descent. I believe it was around 5 degrees in the SR22 which even at full power in a turbo will keep you under VNE.

Tim


In the M600, the timer only starts if you lose cabin pressure, and there are many alarms. even if the primary bleed circuit became inop or you intentionally tried to defeat pressurization by pulling the bleed air circuit there is a separate backup pressurization circuit that kicks in and will keep the cabin pressurized. Now if all that fails, the timer will operate according to altitude with more urgency at higher altitudes. The M600 can descend like a BOH even in cruise power without overspeeding due to the high Vmo. First level off is 14,000 feet, and then if no response still, will descend again to 12,500. If you don't wake up at that point, the pilot is probably cooked anyway. Eventually when the plane runs out of fuel, the plane will descend wings level at 5 knots above stall speed which may or may not result in a survivable gear up landing.

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 14:18 
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Username Protected wrote:

Piston plane hypoxia incidents.... so what?


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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 14:28 
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Yup. Standard on Mustang, M2, CJ3+ as well. In the Mustang (and they all have their particular procedures), it still requires some pilot action to minimize the descent time. Throttles back, gear down, speedbrakes out. 2:20 from FL410 to 15,000.


Talking with a Mustang friend of mine. We both came to the conclusion that auto-descent in the Mustang is probably advertising worthy only if you had unrecognized hypoxia at 410 in the Mustang. By the time the system kicked in, and the very long time it would take to descend if the pilot (unconscious) did not pull throttles and drop gear (which most unconscious people can't do ;) ) That you would essentially be permanently brain injured by the time you got to breathable air. 4 minutes of severe hypoxia is usually all it takes to set in permanent brain damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 15:48 
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You need to have the mask on before you become hypoxic. Otherwise you’re toast at FL410, regardless of which airplane.

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 Post subject: Re: Single engine pressurized above FL 250
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2019, 18:25 
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Talking with a Mustang friend of mine. We both came to the conclusion that auto-descent in the Mustang is probably advertising worthy only if you had unrecognized hypoxia at 410 in the Mustang. By the time the system kicked in, and the very long time it would take to descend if the pilot (unconscious) did not pull throttles and drop gear (which most unconscious people can't do ;) ) That you would essentially be permanently brain injured by the time you got to breathable air. 4 minutes of severe hypoxia is usually all it takes to set in permanent brain damage.


I've often wondered about that, being it's not the lack of oxygen that actually kills the brain cells in 4 minutes but rather reperfusion injury when blood flow is restarted. Operating procedure for resuscitation now includes post-resuscitation hypothermia. I wonder how much one would cool off during a long descent like that and whether it would make any difference.


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