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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 11:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
When the G5 was announced, the word was that the number 4 is unlucky in China.


In both Mandarin and Cantonese, the word for the number 4 sounds like the word for death. 14 sounds like "is dead". So, they'll probably skip G14 as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 11:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
When the G5 was announced, the word was that the number 4 is unlucky in China.


In both Mandarin and Cantonese, the word for the number 4 sounds like the word for death. 14 sounds like "is dead". So, they'll probably skip G14 as well.


So do highrises there skip floors 4, 13 and 14?

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 11:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
You have an uncanny ability to interpret all Cirrus actions in the most negative way possible.

There are plenty of others providing the "everything Cirrus does is great!" view. I don't need to add to that euphoria.

I call it like I see it. I'd be upset to be a position holder, waiting 5000+ days, only to find out my delivery is delayed to slot in new sales, and on top of that my price nearly doubled.

This is a fundamental shift in the value proposition. Once again, the "near $1M" personal jet ends up being near $3M.

If we rewind back to 2006 and told potential customers that the plane wouldn't be delivered for 14+ years, and would cost nearly $3M, how many sign the contract?

Almost no one would. The project probably dies at that point. Cirrus has the depositor's money and has them drinking the Kool Aid, so they are getting away with it now, but it will be highly unlikely they can grow the order book any further, and it will start to shrink now as depositors drop out.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 12:15 
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Wait! Mike, are you saying you're not a fan of the Cirrus jet? Seriously? I never would have guessed that!

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 13:26 
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got a pm from a cool dude & decided to check back in for now & see what i missed

sup with the kool aid?

:popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 13:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
actually, french is 2 of 3 & bits more ..i'm done with this thread :thumbup:

Well, nothing else made sense. Why would this post?

my apologies & i'll put in more effort, french is a second language for me, english 3rd

i bet you are used to telling folks what to do :peace:
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Last edited on 18 Jan 2019, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 13:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_FJ33
Applications

Adam A700
ATG Javelin
Cirrus Vision SF50
Diamond D-Jet
Epic Elite
Flaris LAR01
Spectrum S-33 Independence
Sport Jet II
Eclipse 700

Reads like the membership list for the Broken Dreams Jet Club. Selecting an FJ33 is like the kiss of death.

It should be noted that the FJ33-5A in the SF50 isn't a "true" FJ33. It's a modified FJ44-3AP. Williams found it more expedient to adapt an FJ44 than provide a true FJ33. Thus the FJ33-5A is on the FJ44 type certificate. Maybe that's why the SF50 is the only plane listed above to make it to deliveries.

There is a "true" FJ33, the FJ33-4A-15. It has been certified, on its own type certificate, and was slated to power the D-Jet, but that program was canceled. It was too weak for the SF50.

Mike C.


- edit: you said the above

ok but?

- edit: the following is from cirri & williams

Quote:
The perfect powerplant for the Vision SF50
The Williams FJ33-5A is a scaled down version of the widely popular FJ44 engine.
According to Williams, over 5000 FJ44s are in service and have accumulated over 10 million light hours. Legendary reliability, a superior thrust-to-weight ratio and world class customer service are some of the reasons why Cirrus se-lected the Williams FJ33 to power the Vision Jet.
----
Williams International is a perennial favorite in the Pro Pilot Powerplant Product Support Survey. Over the 18 years Williams has been included in the Survey, the company has outscored its nearest rival by 5%. The FJ33-5A is based on the same technologies as the larger FJ44 powerplant, which has a pedigree 2nd-to-none with over 5000 engines in service accumulating more than 10 million hours

my first post on this was ~ 'not much good about a one/plane model engine deal' but dunno if a yuuuge deal here?

maybe mostly irrelevant right now but can end up biting hard & quick down the road? impacting cost & or value?
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 14:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
actually, french is 2 of 3 & bits more ..i'm not done with this thread :thumbup:

The prior statement needed a little tweaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 16:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
wondering how you have gained such insight?

I know a lot of people in the industry, I keep my eyes open, I read the fine print, and I've seen a lot of things.

Mike C.

:popcorn:
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 16:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wait! Mike, are you saying you're not a fan of the Cirrus jet?

I'm a fan of a personal very light jet, one that would truly open up real and personal jet travel to more folks.

Over the last 2 decades, I've seen everybody screw it up.

Sigh.

The Eclipse was close, they just innovated themselves into oblivion with bad avionics and other ideas.

The SF50 is mediocre turboprop in jet clothing. Except it doesn't have any turboprop advantages.

The Mustang was probably the best result of the bunch, but something in the 6000 lbs class would be better. The Mustang isn't really a personal VLJ, more of a miniaturized CJ, in terms of design philosophy.

Someday, someone will make a true personal VLJ that isn't crippled. What a wonderful day that will be.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 17:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
actually, french is 2 of 3 & bits more ..i'm done with this thread :thumbup:

Actually Jon, this thread is Hôtel Californie.

certainement :clap:
[youtube]https://youtu.be/S9MeTn1i72g[/youtube]
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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 17:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wait! Mike, are you saying you're not a fan of the Cirrus jet? Seriously? I never would have guessed that!

no no no, mostly isn't a kool aid fan afaik :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 00:31 
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wow, :bugeye: folks all bugeyed by mc just chatting..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2019, 03:45 
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When G2 was announced I thought 500 was right around the corner but this is getting pretty tedious lately...

:btt:

I generally have been in Mike’s camp and think his points have merit, but the very real G2 plusses have me swinging back. I mean, it would be cool to have one of those magic carpets, wouldn’t it? Totally see flying it wherever. No, its not a transcontinental rocketship but WOW, when the yardstick is a Bo, a Mooney or a Baron, ill taket the JET! (sorry Mike :bud:)


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2019, 12:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
It's no weirder than the blindly loyal devotees that gush at every Cirrus action regardless of merit. They even love it when Cirrus renegs on the contract and ups the price nearly $1M.

Where do see any evidence that Cirrus reneged on the contract with position holders? The contact you posted has no viggle room, they have to give them G1 or G2 for the original contracted price. Plus CPL adjustments, of course.

Quote:
I'm not as influenced by marketing as many, so I'm basing my views on the hard cold specifics of the product. The loyalists can't understand it.

The opposite of me would be a person with an SF50 in the hangar, a Tesla in the garage, owns every iThing from Apple, wears Nike shoes, and drinks Starbucks.


I look at the cold cpecifics too. Tesla makes awesome cars, Apple stuff provides excellent user experience, Starbucks lattes taste great, and SF50 is the best plane in it’s price category. These are cold facts.


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