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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 08:12 
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"The production numbers are based on realistic assessments that combine market demand/backlog as well as manufacturing capability. If you visit Cirrus HQ in Duluth, you will see the tooling for the SF50 Vision Jet in place parallel to the current SR2X line, which has a current annual production rate of 300 aircraft. In fact, fabrication of production parts for the SF50 have already started, as was celebrated at our Grand Forks, ND plant in October. ... I will add though that you have an entire team of dedicated professionals who have been and continue to work toward and have confidence in delivering on this schedule."

If you want one, there are used ones already for sale on controller.com. Guess those guys want a real jet now.

(I was amused at serial #48: "Aerista is very proud to offer the lowest time SF50 on the market". How can it be lower than zero for the positions for sale? #48 has 110 hours total time.)

Mike C.


There are 3 SF50s for sale. The one with a price says $2.4M. Don’t you think some early buyers planned to flip? It happens with every new aircraft. In this case they stand to make nearly $1M. Hard to argue its because they “want a real jet”.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 08:36 
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Jesse,
That’s what it sounded like to me.... those early positions were at 1.3MM. Sounds like most position holders aren’t willing to part w their position for less than maybe 90% of the take...
delivered used prices are competing with about to be delivered position holders. Both stand to gain from their purchase price guarantees.

It sure didn’t sound like cirrus was worried about getting enough buyers.... they got those...they aren’t interested in helping potential buyers line up with position holders...you gotta do that on your own. He could have bought an M600 and cirrus wouldn’t have lost any sleep over that it sounds like.
You would think if they had concerns about the size of the buyer pool, they would be helping all buyers get into a cirrus jet.... helping line up position holders that intend to sell and potential buyers and those willing to wait... but they don’t.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 09:30 
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SF50 is 300 knots on 65 GPH. Pressurized. Gorgeous avionics and cockpit. Parachute. $2.4MM

All the other mini jets cost 2X that price. If a buyer wants a "real jet" he can pony up more money and buy one.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 09:54 
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Haven't heard any complaints that they don't perform as advertised.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 10:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
SF50 is 300 knots on 65 GPH. Pressurized. Gorgeous avionics and cockpit. Parachute. $2.4MM

All the other mini jets cost 2X that price. If a buyer wants a "real jet" he can pony up more money and buy one.



Never cared for the 22 but the V tail jet looks very cool.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 10:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
His wife said... this is the plane. No comparison.


I wonder what percentage of SF50 sales occur this way. I know when I make a significant purchase I always involve my wife.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 10:48 
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Company: CCDE, Inc
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I don't know squat about jets, but here's an observation ...

I have a neighbor, two doors down from me here on Taxiway Zulu, that flies an SF50 quite a lot - two or three times a week, at least.

He also owns and flys a much bigger jet, with two engines on the tail and a bunch of windows. It also flies quite a lot - not as much as before he got the V-Tail jet, but still very often.

Sometimes both airplanes fly the same day !

This fella has a Cirrus mini jet for the same reason I still have a Cessna 150 - sometimes you just don't need the big airplane, right ?

_________________
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N60988 C150

I'm retired now - don't need a fast airplane anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 10:50 
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Haven't heard any complaints that they don't perform as advertised.

They advertised it as the "slowest, lowest, and cheapest jet available".

After more than a decade of intense development, they managed, somehow, to achieve those difficult goals. Other manufacturers took the easy way out and have been trying to make jets that fly faster and higher. Wimps.

The challenge Cirrus had to overcome to be slowest and lowest was recognized by the industry with the Collier award. It remains to be seen if the Collier award is an indicator of commercial success or an omen of failure as it was for Eclipse.

Virtually the entire order book is locked in at the $1.39M price point, approaching half what the sales price is today, suggesting Cirrus is losing money on each delivery. That's ultimately what killed Eclipse, selling product below cost.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 10:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't know squat about jets, but here's an observation ...

I have a neighbor, two doors down from me here on Taxiway Zulu, that flies an SF50 quite a lot - two or three times a week, at least.

He also owns and flys a much bigger jet, with two engines on the tail and a bunch of windows. It also flies quite a lot - not as much as before he got the V-Tail jet, but still very often.

Sometimes both airplanes fly the same day !

This fella has a Cirrus mini jet for the same reason I still have a Cessna 150 - sometimes you just don't need the big airplane, right ?


Spot on Charles. My neighbor has three jets; a Falcon, a Hawker and an Eclipse. He uses the Eclipse for the short hops. Or maybe I should say he used to. Don’t know how they are getting on now since Ch11.

I’ve got the Baron and a 172. Different purposes and ones a lot bigger PITA than the other. Of course some just have these blinders on and fly a Mu2. For everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 11:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Haven't heard any complaints that they don't perform as advertised.

They advertised it as the "slowest, lowest, and cheapest jet available".

After more than a decade of intense development, they managed, somehow, to achieve those difficult goals. Other manufacturers took the easy way out and have been trying to make jets that fly faster and higher. Wimps.

The challenge Cirrus had to overcome to be slowest and lowest was recognized by the industry with the Collier award. It remains to be seen if the Collier award is an indicator of commercial success or an omen of failure as it was for Eclipse.

Virtually the entire order book is locked in at the $1.39M price point, approaching half what the sales price is today, suggesting Cirrus is losing money on each delivery. That's ultimately what killed Eclipse, selling product below cost.

Mike C.


So many words, so little said.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 11:47 
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I guess the continuation is an effort to reach new members that weren’t around for the first 400 pages. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 12:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
I guess the continuation is an effort to reach new members that weren’t around for the first 400 pages. ;)


With MC back we can pretty much be sure to hit 500 pages. Lots more entertainment to follow folks!

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 12:58 
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http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/ ... -90-04.pdf

Disables CAPS autopilot takeover.

Installs placard that says:

MAX CAPS ACTIVATION SPEED
LOWER OF 135 KIAS OR 145 KTAS


Pretty narrow range of usefulness, you have to be high enough, and slow enough. A typical flight will be within chute deployment envelope only a tiny fraction of the time, maybe just a few minutes. If you have the altitude and the control to be within chute deployment envelope, you probably have lots of options other than chute deployment to consider.

At FL280, 145 KTAS is 92 KIAS. That's pretty slow.

Do jets need parachutes? Here's the fatal private jet accidents so far this year:

4/2/2018: CJ hits 152 on landing in Marion, IN. Chute useless for that.

4/15/2018: CJ hits mountain in Crozet, VA while scud running in low weather. Chute useless for that.

8/13/2018: CJ hits house in Payson City, UT, suicide with attempted murder. Chute useless for that.

10/4/2018: Falcon 50 runs off end of runway at Greensboro, SC. Chute useless for that.

11/30/2018: CJ loses control sometime during initial climb, Jeffersonville, IN. Chute useless for that due to high speed of event all the way to the ground.

So the chute would be 0 for 5 this year had jets been so equipped. It is hard to find any private jet accident where the chute would have been clearly useful.

The chute is a "solution" developed for unreliable piston engines fitted to slow, light weight aircraft. It fails miserably to deal with the true nature of jet accidents. The application of piston think to a jet causes the fundamental flaws of the SF-50, the chute being one of those flaws. The chute simply does not provide the protection and safety benefits people think it does.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 13:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
The chute simply does not provide the protection and safety benefits people think it does.

Mike C.


Agree totally. The chute provide profit and sales benefits! Cirrus is definitely piston think and they're apparently the only people on the globe capable of it in the last 3 decades.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2018, 13:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/tech_pubs/sf50/pdf/SB/SF5XBulletins/SB5X-90-04/SB5X-90-04.pdf

Disables CAPS autopilot takeover.

Installs placard that says:

MAX CAPS ACTIVATION SPEED
LOWER OF 135 KIAS OR 145 KTAS


Pretty narrow range of usefulness, you have to be high enough, and slow enough. A typical flight will be within chute deployment envelope only a tiny fraction of the time, maybe just a few minutes. If you have the altitude and the control to be within chute deployment envelope, you probably have lots of options other than chute deployment to consider.

At FL280, 145 KTAS is 92 KIAS. That's pretty slow.

Do jets need parachutes? Here's the fatal private jet accidents so far this year:

4/2/2018: CJ hits 152 on landing in Marion, IN. Chute useless for that.

4/15/2018: CJ hits mountain in Crozet, VA while scud running in low weather. Chute useless for that.

8/13/2018: CJ hits house in Payson City, UT, suicide with attempted murder. Chute useless for that.

10/4/2018: Falcon 50 runs off end of runway at Greensboro, SC. Chute useless for that.

11/30/2018: CJ loses control sometime during initial climb, Jeffersonville, IN. Chute useless for that due to high speed of event all the way to the ground.

So the chute would be 0 for 5 this year had jets been so equipped. It is hard to find any private jet accident where the chute would have been clearly useful.

The chute is a "solution" developed for unreliable piston engines fitted to slow, light weight aircraft. It fails miserably to deal with the true nature of jet accidents. The application of piston think to a jet causes the fundamental flaws of the SF-50, the chute being one of those flaws. The chute simply does not provide the protection and safety benefits people think it does.

Mike C.


Of course the chute was probably one of the best marketing and safety instruments in modern airplane engineering. A truly brilliant move considering your flying behind 1940’s technocrap of an engine that’s been double turbocharged and intercooled.

_________________
“ Embrace the Suck”


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