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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2019, 01:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
But since few piston twins are flown by two pilots as well trained as applies to the jets, accident statistics are definitely biased in favor of the jets.

Consider:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransAsia ... Flight_235
Attachment:
TransAsia_Flight_235_crash.png

This is a plane with two crew where it had two GOOD engines capable of producing thrust, and it crashed with ZERO of them doing so.

In a jet, you can't feather the wrong engine, so this accident doesn't happen.

That's a fundamental difference, prop planes require the pilot change the engine configuration, there's no such corresponding requirement in jets. Jets require you do only ONE thing, fly.

So saying jets are safer/easier when an engine fails is supported by statistics and by the intrinsic characteristics.

Mike C.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... h_ch15.pdf
15-18
Quote:
Jet Airplane Takeoff and Climb

The following information is generic in nature and, since most civilian jet airplanes require a minimum flight crew of two pilots, assumes a two pilot crew. If any of the following information conflicts with FAA-approved AFM procedures for a particular airplane, the AFM procedures take precedence. Also, if any of the following procedures differ from the FAA-approved procedures developed for use by a specific air operator and/or for use in an FAA-approved training center or pilot school curriculum, the FAA-approved procedures for that operator and/or training center/pilot school take precedence.

All FAA certificated jet airplanes are certificated under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 25, which contains the airworthiness standards for transport category airplanes. The FAA-certificated jet airplane is a highly sophisticated machine with proven levels of performance and guaranteed safety margins. The jet airplane’s performance and safety margins can only be realized, however, if the airplane is operated in strict compliance with the procedures and limitations contained in the FAA-approved AFM for the particular airplane. Furthermore, in accordance with 14 CFR part 91, section 91.213, a turbine powered airplane may not be operated with inoperable instruments or equipment installed unless an approved Minimum Equipment List (MEL) exists for that aircraft, and the aircraft is operated under all applicable conditions and limitations contained in the MEL

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2019, 01:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
Well, in the TransAsia 235 case, the computer mistakenly feathers a good engine, and then the pilots feather the other one.

Two good engines, zero thrust.

So the very system which was designed so that you didn't have to feather the engine actually started the accident sequence.

The jet engine has nothing to feather, so it doesn't have a computer to get it wrong, or a human to get it wrong, either.

It absolutely shows the jet versus prop issue.

The result would not have been the same in a jet. First, there is no need for an automatic system to feather the prop, and thus sometimes get it wrong. Second, there is no way a pilot can feather the remaining engine.

Mike C.


It's not a good engine, if the computer controlling it is not letting you use it.

Quote:
The jet engine has nothing to feather, so it doesn't have a computer to get it wrong, or a human to get it wrong, either.

Hate so say this, but you don't seem to have much experience with jets do you? Me neither, but these are very basic things you learn when you get a type.

Similar situation, modern jets automatically command idle thrust if reverser is unlocked. You're saying that's a "good engine" too? So yes. They do have a computer. And yes, sometimes they get it wrong. And yes, if you rush the procedure (which by the way is LONG in a big jet), you can pull back the power and shut down the wrong engine. It's already been done in a 737. Killed half the passengers. And that wasn't even a FADEC induced issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_reversal
"In-flight deployment of reverse thrust has directly contributed to the crashes of several transport-type aircraft:"

Quote:
On 11 February 1978 Pacific Western Airlines Flight 314, a Boeing 737-200, crashed while executing a rejected landing at Cranbrook Airport. The left thrust reverser had not properly stowed; it deployed during the climbout, causing the aircraft to roll to the left and strike the ground. Out of 5 crew members and 44 passengers, only 6 passengers and a flight attendant survived.

On 9 February 1982 Japan Airlines Flight 350 crashed 1,000 feet (300 m) short of the runway at Tokyo Haneda Airport following the intentional deployment of reverse thrust on two of the Douglas DC-8's four engines by the mentally unstable captain, resulting in 24 passenger deaths.[12][13][14]

On 29 August 1990, a United States Air Force Lockheed C-5 Galaxy crashed shortly after take-off from Ramstein Air Base in Germany. As the aircraft started to climb off the runway, one of the thrust reversers suddenly deployed. This resulted in loss of control of the aircraft and the subsequent crash. Of the 17 people on board, 4 survived the crash.

On 26 May 1991, Lauda Air Flight 004, a Boeing 767-300ER, had an accidental deployment of the left engine's thrust reverser, which caused the airliner to go into a rapid dive and break up in mid-air.[15] All 213 passengers and 10 crew were killed.

On 31 October 1996, TAM Linhas Aéreas Flight 402, a Fokker 100, crashed shortly after take-off from Congonhas-São Paulo International Airport, São Paulo, Brazil, striking two apartment buildings and several houses. All 90 passengers and 6 crew members as well as 3 people on the ground died in the crash. The crash was attributed to the un-commanded deployment of a faulty thrust reverser on the right engine shortly after take-off.

On 10 February 2004, Kish Air Flight 7170, a Fokker 50, crashed while on approach to Sharjah International Airport. A total of 43 out of the 46 passengers and crew on board were killed. Investigators determined that the pilots had prematurely set the propellers to reverse thrust mode, causing them to lose control of the aircraft.

On 17 July 2007, TAM Linhas Aéreas Flight 3054, a Airbus A320 crashed after landing on Congonhas-São Paulo International Airport, São Paulo, Brazil, hitting a Shell Gas station, cars, and finally the TAM Express building, killing a total of 199 people, 187 aboard the plane and 12 on the ground, leaving no survivors. The crash was attributed to a malfunction in the right thrust reverser.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2019, 02:36 
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All of those too. I was referring to BD092, where the crew shut down the wrong engine. Which according to Mike Ciholas, is impossible.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2019, 03:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm really excited about the SF50, so I figured I'd make a new thread instead of continuing to hijack the CAPS thread.


Kind of funny this is the opening line in post 1 of a 500 page thread.

Who’d have thought we’d be discussing a 737 crash :peace:

I actually enjoy the drift so thanks to all :bud:

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 18:00 
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The World of Rap has spoken - the Vision is a success.

"Rapper 21 Savage leaves Georgia ICE detention center in a private jet with his mom after being released from custody on $100,000 bond"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... e-jet.html

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N204HS


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 18:15 
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Joined: 01/29/16
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Username Protected wrote:
"Rapper 21 Savage leaves Georgia ICE detention center in a private jet with his mom after being released from custody on $100,000 bond"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... e-jet.html


Good thing he didn't have far to travel and no pressure to get there quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 19:26 
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Joined: 12/16/07
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But, it is a jet!

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 21:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
"Rapper 21 Savage leaves Georgia ICE detention center in a private jet with his mom after being released from custody on $100,000 bond"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... e-jet.html


Good thing he didn't have far to travel and no pressure to get there quickly.


And how many times has it been pointed out; jets and setp mostly fly how far?

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:15 
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Joined: 08/12/08
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I really don’t get all the hate the Vision jet is getting.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But why disparage the aircraft and the judgement of those who are buying them?

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
I really don’t get all the hate the Vision jet is getting.

If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. But why disparage the aircraft and the judgement of those who are buying them?


At this point, in this thread, the disparaging remarks are probably 50% sarcasm (or more).

It's almost like its own little inside joke now.

Just my opinion. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:28 
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Joined: 07/11/11
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Username Protected wrote:
The World of Rap has spoken - the Vision is a success.

"Rapper 21 Savage leaves Georgia ICE detention center in a private jet with his mom after being released from custody on $100,000 bond"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... e-jet.html

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N204HS

For what some people consider a very limited jet, N204HS sure gets around - look at the FA history.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
I really don’t get all the hate the Vision jet is getting.

I don't get all people who call others haters. Disagreement is not hate.

Quote:
If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If you don't like the comments, don't read the posts.

Quote:
But why disparage the aircraft and the judgement of those who are buying them?

It's called criticism. The plane has short comings. It's is basically a mediocre turboprop with all the disadvantages of being a jet.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:37 
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Joined: 08/13/12
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The SF 50 fits a market which is why they have a waiting list. What’s the push back to much technology? Oh wait because it has a parachute? Hilarious

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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 22:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
For what some people consider a very limited jet, N204HS sure gets around - look at the FA history.
It's also a G2, so there are several FL300 and FL310 flights to look at.


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 Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 23:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
For what some people consider a very limited jet, N204HS sure gets around - look at the FA history.
It's also a G2, so there are several FL300 and FL310 flights to look at.

I'm not up to speed with the SF50 - what is a G2? Are they RVSM certified now? That is pretty cool.

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