BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Nov 2017, 18:06

Username Protected wrote:

In any case, this is not a sure fatal accident averted IMO.

I wait to see what in your opinion will be a sure fatal accident averted. :scratch:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Nov 2017, 18:17

Username Protected wrote:

Cirrus has trounced all other piston aircraft mfrs combined for private sales for going on 15 years.

Go look at GAMA records.

Textron has sold more piston singles in some years than Cirrus. 2015 is an example year where this has occurred (301 for Cirrus, 312 for Textron).

...

Got to hand it to the Cirrus marketing machine, they create all these beneficial perceptions about their product. It isn't the most sold or have the safest record, yet many believe that.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Nov 2017, 22:22

Username Protected wrote:

If we look at the 2016 GAMA databook for 2003-2016, 14 years (so almost your 15 year period), sales of piston singles were:

Cirrus: 5,842 piston singles
Textron: 7,726 piston singles

Cirrus is not even the largest piston single maker, much less "trounce all other mfrs combined".

Who cares what the sales were in 2003. What are the numbers for the last year?

Here, let me save you some googling:

Attachment:

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Screen Shot 2017-11-14 at 9.12.07 PM.png

So we have 320 vs. 217. Even if you add 25 Bonanzas, Cirrus is definitely the largest singe-engine plane maker NOW.

Not to mention that we are counting 172's and such for Textron that aren't competitors for Cirrus in any shape or form. The real comparison is SR-22 vs. Bonanza G36 + Cessna TTx. Now we have 282 vs. 56.

Those numbers speak for themselves. In the category of high performance family-travel singles (4 place, 160+ kts) Cirrus does beat all other manufacturers combined.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Nov 2017, 23:45

Username Protected wrote:

In the category of high performance family-travel singles (4 place, 160+ kts) Cirrus does beat all other manufacturers combined.

Someone recently said "In other words, when the original argument doesn't work out, change the argument."

Wonder who that was?

Yes, Cirrus sells the most airplanes that look like a Cirrus. Cirrus does not sell more pistons than all others combined. There are a surprising number of piston aircraft sold each year, somehow the general perception is that this isn't true.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Nov 2017, 23:49

Username Protected wrote:

Many of Cessna's sales were to Feds and flight schools. Agree there is no way to parse non-fleet sales, but it's significant.

Why do you think this doesn't happen for Cirrus as well?

"Lufthansa Selects Cirrus Aircraft Fleet for Airline Pilot Training Program"

"Global flight training organizations continued to select the technologically-advanced, industry-leading SR series of aircraft as part of their fleets in 2016 to prepare pilots for careers in aviation. Japan Civil Aviation College and the Swiss Federal Office of Civil Aviation, among others, added Cirrus airplanes to their fleets this past year due to the exceptional safety features, flight management system technology and cost of ownership advantages available on the SR platform."

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Nov 2017, 08:57

Username Protected wrote:

This thread is like walking past a strip joint on Bourbon Street, there is nothing to be gained by going in, but it is it's hard not to look in if the the door is open when walking by....

A strip joint with a bunch of aging pilots.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Nov 2017, 15:17

Username Protected wrote:

Yes, Cirrus sells the most airplanes that look like a Cirrus. Cirrus does not sell more pistons than all others combined. There are a surprising number of piston aircraft sold each year, somehow the general perception is that this isn't true.

Right, in other words, they dominate their market segment.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Nov 2017, 15:34

Username Protected wrote:

Yes, Cirrus sells the most airplanes that look like a Cirrus. Cirrus does not sell more pistons than all others combined. There are a surprising number of piston aircraft sold each year, somehow the general perception is that this isn't true.

Right, in other words, they dominate their market segment.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Nov 2017, 17:41

Username Protected wrote:

But, but, but.... Cirrus artificially created the market segment with the SR20/22. You need to compare the plane to others that cost twice as much! Only by such narrow definitions of four place 170+ KTAS cruiser do you get such a small market. I mean, if you lower the speed to 140+ you can get a Diamond in there, if you expand it to six places there is a Beech model, and if you lower the speed to 120+ KTAS you can even include a Cessna or two.
It is all about how you define the market.

So, how do we define the market for which the SF50 plays in?

I know this was supposed to be in green, but Cirrus did not create that market, of course. It's been a well-established market for the last 50 hears or so, with Bonanzas, PA-32s, Mooneys, Cessna RGs and 210's competing in it. Then Cirrus came in and ate their lunch.

As for SF-50... I define that segment as "new airplane under $2.5M". How much competition they got in that market?