18 Apr 2024, 08:01 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 05:10 |
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Joined: 10/31/14 Posts: 534 Post Likes: +255
Aircraft: eclipse
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Username Protected wrote: Just read in latest issue of Flying magazine, the max demonstrated x-wind for the Vision jet is 16kts. Does that surprise anyone? I realize this is not a limitation. But it seems low to me. TBM is 20kts and Cessna TTx is 23 kts. Just curious. Thanks Crosswind number is a regulatory based on stall speed. You will almost never find a manufacturer put in a demonstrated speed which is higher then the regulatory requirement. Tim
Tim I don't think so. I think it's based on rudder effectiveness. The Eclipse has 30 knot demonstrated crosswind
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 08:22 |
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Joined: 06/20/12 Posts: 273 Post Likes: +46 Location: Oklahoma
Aircraft: C-90, Evolution
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I thought max demonstrated crosswind component was whatever crosswind a test pilot was able to "demonstrate" during certification that a safe landing could be done at.
Mike
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 09:32 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8448 Post Likes: +8426 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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That is my understanding as well Mike. Since we have all seen, and heard, of pilots landing safely while exceeding this limit I wonder how the manufacturer actually determines the certified limit to be?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 09:47 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: That is my understanding as well Mike. Since we have all seen, and heard, of pilots landing safely while exceeding this limit I wonder how the manufacturer actually determines the certified limit to be? There is no certified crosswind LIMIT. It is just what the test pilots have demonstrated in whatever crosswind they had. They often do not go searching to find the aircrafts true limit.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 10:53 |
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Joined: 09/13/13 Posts: 351 Post Likes: +209
Aircraft: M20R
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From AC 23-8C: ( https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 023-8C.pdf) Section 9. Ground and Water Handling Characteristics 2. § 23.233 Directional Stability and Control. b. Procedures. (1) Crosswind. (a) The airplane should be operated throughout its approved loading envelope at gradually increasing values of crosswind component until a crosswind equivalent to 0.2 VSO is reached. All approved takeoff and landing configurations should be evaluated. Higher crosswind values may be evaluated at the discretion of the test pilot for AFM inclusion.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 11:04 |
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Joined: 10/13/15 Posts: 35 Post Likes: +24
Aircraft: PA46-500TP
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I had heard the same thing about the max demonstrated crosswind in the POH being just the maximum the test pilots happened to encounter during the certification process. It didn't make sense to me that in the several years of test flying Cirrus didn't see anything greater than 16kts. A google search turned up a flying magazine article that clarified a lot of the questions. Main takehome points were:
1. At a minimum a manufacturer has to show that the airframe can be safely landed in a direct crosswind equal to 20% of Vso without exceptional skill. If they do that they have met the requirement. For most single engine airplanes that stall at 60kts this minimum would be 12kts. 2. The max demonstrated crosswind is not limiting unless the manufacturer says so. So using that as a limitation is up to the manufacturer, not the FAA. Of course a company is free to use whatever limitations they want to in their opspecs.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 11:06 |
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Joined: 11/06/10 Posts: 11898 Post Likes: +2854 Company: Looking Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
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Username Protected wrote: Tim I don't think so. I think it's based on rudder effectiveness. The Eclipse has 30 knot demonstrated crosswind Check Debbie's post. She posted the relevant FAR. Eclipse decided to go beyond the regulatory requirement. That is the option of the manufacturer. Tim
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 16:42 |
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Joined: 10/31/14 Posts: 534 Post Likes: +255
Aircraft: eclipse
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Username Protected wrote: Tim I don't think so. I think it's based on rudder effectiveness. The Eclipse has 30 knot demonstrated crosswind Check Debbie's post. She posted the relevant FAR. Eclipse decided to go beyond the regulatory requirement. That is the option of the manufacturer. Tim Tim In a crosswind you bank one way and use the rudder to keep straight. Sooner or later you run out of rudder and that's your max crosswind.
Cirrus obviously met the certificate requirements but I question the rudder authority. Time will tell
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 18 Jun 2017, 17:05 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 1702 Post Likes: +1727 Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
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Username Protected wrote: Just read in latest issue of Flying magazine, the max demonstrated x-wind for the Vision jet is 16kts. Does that surprise anyone? I realize this is not a limitation. But it seems low to me. TBM is 20kts and Cessna TTx is 23 kts. Just curious. Thanks Blue ribbon is for first place Red ribbon is for second place Cessna TTX will handle 23-25 knots crosswind just fine. I tell any passengers aboard it will be fun for me and interesting for them. 26-27 knots and it could be fun "or" interesting 30 knots I'm out. Been there, done that and got the brown ribbon. If the Vision will not safely handle 25-27 knots crosswind then I would cross it off...of my six years from now used market search Brown ribbon is for dumb
_________________ I wanna go phastR.....and slowR
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 21 Jun 2017, 15:51 |
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Joined: 04/16/10 Posts: 2031 Post Likes: +886 Location: Wisconsin
Aircraft: CJ4, AmphibBeaver
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I'm starting to like the plane, but I'd be really concerned about the operating economics with the low rate of climb described in the Flying article. If ATC is going to off-route you to keep you out of the way, or worse....hold you down until far enough away from other departures and arrivals, the range will be affected.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 24 Jun 2017, 18:24 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 30692 Post Likes: +10713 Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: I thought the brown ribbon was something else entirely. Brown ribbon is what you get if someone's sitting on the white ribbon during a crosswind landing that almost didn't work out well.
_________________ -lance
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post subject: Re: Cirrus SF50 Posted: 25 Jun 2017, 16:44 |
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Joined: 07/04/11 Posts: 1712 Post Likes: +242 Company: W. John Gadd, Esq. Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
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Username Protected wrote: I thought the brown ribbon was something else entirely. Brown ribbon is what you get if someone's sitting on the white ribbon during a crosswind landing that almost didn't work out well.
Sounds like I was thinking along the right lines-stripes after all.
I have nephews that resemble that remark.
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