Excellent idea. You can sell it as a paperweight, or a lawn ornament, or a novelty prize at the fair.

But without PMA you’re not selling it to anyone who owns an aircraft. Recertification will cost you enough money to buy and throw away a few dozen citations. I don’t know who would want to get into that business.

Only a few dozen?

That's cheap!

You could be into a billion dollar industry for a fraction of what Williams paid to get there. You get to learn from all their experience what works and what doesn't and start with a known good basic design.


Honda?

They would have been way ahead to duplicate rather than reinvent.

How much did their engine cost to develop? A lot more than a few dozen Citations.

Mike C.

Williams is to jet engines what HP is to ink cartridges.

Williams has absolute power and that will always lead to abuse.

Mike C.

But without PMA you’re not selling it to anyone who owns an aircraft. Recertification will cost you enough money to buy and throw away a few dozen citations.

The PMA parts path will never work with Williams, there is no market for the parts. Nobody will buy a PMA turbine wheel since nobody can install it but Williams. This is due to Williams not releasing any of the service information necessary to rebuild their engines. Controlling that information is controlling the market.

The only path that would work is an entirely "new" engine that is bolt on compatible with the current one, with its own certification, and an STC to bolt it on as a mod, and to sell it new to OEMs. Basically, take Williams market away from them. Their only option would be to lower the price of everything and they can't do that.

You have to bypass the entire Williams ecosystem.

The most likely way this could happen is if a company in China does it. They are voracious about aerospace stuff, look at all the western aerospace companies that have already bought. Small efficient jet engines would be of significant interest to them.

I would be shocked if an FJ44 has not been thoroughly reversed engineered by somebody in China.

Mike C.

This is why the GE Catalyst is so important, maybe even essential. It has the potential to keep Pratt in check. If it fails, we're in a world of ever increasing monopolistic pain.

What I've never understood is why Honeywell is at sleep at the wheel. They have, objectively, the most reliable and efficient TP out there. Yet, they're not lifting a finger as an OEM to get it out there. Must be nice selling all those over-priced parts, I guess.

The PMA parts path will never work with Williams, there is no market for the parts. Nobody will buy a PMA turbine wheel since nobody can install it but Williams. This is due to Williams not releasing any of the service information necessary to rebuild their engines. Controlling that information is controlling the market.

The only path that would work is an entirely "new" engine that is bolt on compatible with the current one, with its own certification, and an STC to bolt it on as a mod, and to sell it new to OEMs. Basically, take Williams market away from them. Their only option would be to lower the price of everything and they can't do that.

You have to bypass the entire Williams ecosystem.

The most likely way this could happen is if a company in China does it. They are voracious about aerospace stuff, look at all the western aerospace companies that have already bought. Small efficient jet engines would be of significant interest to them.

I would be shocked if an FJ44 has not been thoroughly reversed engineered by somebody in China.

Mike C.

By the way, Textron can’t even install G1000’s in King Airs, you think you can walk in and replace Williams…

So Williams excuse is that Williams has increased the price of their parts? That's circular reasoning there.


The raw materials in an engine are insignificant factor in the parts prices. Titanium is about $30 per lbs and there isn't that much of it in the engine, for example. Carbon steel, something Williams mentioned, is under $1 per lbs. A 15 lbs turbine wheel costing $50K has nothing to do with raw materials.

At this point, there's a business to be had to take an FJ44, copy it part by part, recertify it, and sell it. Any engine over ~15 years old has no parts whose patents haven't run out. There's nothing legally preventing someone from creating a duplicate engine and selling it.

Mike C.

Most recent aircraft to go with TPE331 was the MQ9 Reaper.

They do sell some to retrofits like Caravans.

But no, they don't seem too keen on winning new designs. One reason is that most designs today are single engine turboprops and the TPE331 exhaust flow isn't as easy to manage in those situations.

Mike C.

What part did you get PMA? Specifics will lend credibility to your statements. The absence of them will do the opposite.

Honda built a new engine, a new design with totally new engineering, so they seem more competent at it than you appear to be.

Someone starting with a known design would have an easier time of it. They would start with a ready retrofit bolt on market, too. This means their cost and time to develop and certify will be a lot less and they can get to market for a lot less than engineering a new design.

If a company wanted to get into small business jet engines, the easiest path is to make a clone. Nothing you have said changes that conclusion.

Mike C.

But they had to partner with GE to do it. And for the second variant of their plane, they went with Williams.
When even an established engine company like Honda gives up on building a Williams competitor, it shows how unrealistic as a business case is your idea of someone "just" copying, building and certifying a Williams clone.

Are you sure?

I didn’t know they announced an engine selection.

That’s interesting, and sad. Very sad to learn if true

What part did you get PMA? Specifics will lend credibility to your statements. The absence of them will do the opposite.

Honda built a new engine, a new design with totally new engineering, so they seem more competent at it than you appear to be.

Someone starting with a known design would have an easier time of it. They would start with a ready retrofit bolt on market, too. This means their cost and time to develop and certify will be a lot less and they can get to market for a lot less than engineering a new design.

If a company wanted to get into small business jet engines, the easiest path is to make a clone. Nothing you have said changes that conclusion.

Mike C.

The problem with a new entrant in this market that might appear to make sense is the problem with many monopolies- the numbers look great because of how much Williams/Jeppesen/Signature etc is charging relative to what it costs (or should cost), but because there’s such a margin built in they can afford to drop prices whenever a competitor appears making it unattractive for that competitor to exist.

Not a perfect analogy, but if you could suddenly buy beer from two independent businesses in a baseball stadium, neither one could charge $16 and neither one would be making nearly as much money because that huge markup is just due to the lack of customer options. If you fix that, the price drops, and so does your capital outlay to enter the market.

If I were Textron I’d start looking at major investments at Williams’ suppliers, IP, and generally make Williams scared. Goal would be leverage, not necessarily replacing them, but it would set them up to do so if needed and skirt regulatory problems.

Apple does this masterfully. They invest in IP like intel’s modem effort, their ARM investment, and buy up smaller emerging tech companies almost weekly. Doesn’t need to be a huge merger to make a big impact over time.