Who had the waiver? Houston ATC?

But you said ATC can't give pilot's the instruction to exceed speed in 91.117.

If so, then such a waiver wouldn't actually work, right?

Mike C.

How was a pilot supposed to know that Houston ATC can ask you to go fast, violating 91.117 under waiver, and Chicago ATC can ask you to go fast, but you are violating the FARs?

The FAR says "No person may operate...", but the waiver wasn't for the person operating the plane, was it? So how did that work?

Mike C.

Or the relevant equivalents for 135/121. Whether it's realistic or not to expect it, the PIC is expected to know every rule/regulation/change/order/whatever that applies to any particular flight.

I haven't the foggiest idea where they'd publish the fact that a particular center has permission from the administrator to offer higher climb speeds. But, it's a government agency; I'm sure they published it somewhere.

How was a pilot supposed to know that Houston ATC can ask you to go fast, violating 91.117 under waiver, and Chicago ATC can ask you to go fast, but you are violating the FARs?

The FAR says "No person may operate...", but the waiver wasn't for the person operating the plane, was it? So how did that work?

Mike C.

Hence my belief no flight is totally conforming to the FARs.

When you commit aviation, you break some FAR somewhere, every time. The goal is to have no one notice.

Mike C.

Failed due to ALPA having legitimate safety concerns.
Have to had your head in a hole to not know about the program in IAH when it was in effect. Went from 1997-2004.
Assuming you were flying then.

Mike , you are right. The airlines have programs called ASAP. Essentially a get out of jail free card if you report sour mistakes, usually with in 24 hrs. Can't be intentional. Like the NASA program but better. ATC participates in essentially the same thing. Most common reports are NAV and altitude deviations. Usually due to programming the FMS wrong, or simply setting altitude selector wrong. Many factors come into play and each report is looked at by a safety committee to see what can be learned to stop the errors.

The nav and altitude deviations are way more common in single pilot ops vs crew ops. As one would expect.

Why not? The plane is obviously capable of going that fast if the pilot wants.


LiveATC archives don't go back far enough to hear it, otherwise I'd have you listen to it yourself.

May 2, 2009, 9:31am CDT, ILS 31C KMDW.

Mike C.

Use the speedbrake.

Then again, I've also done a carrier break in a real DC9, and one in the 737 SIM.

But for airline flying, yeah the 737 is pretty aerodynamically slippery.

Isn't landing gear Vle 230 knots or more? And you got speedbrakes?

Find me a 737 sim and I'll be happy to try it, hit marker at 230 and then flight idle, gear down, speed brakes, track GS, flaps out as speed allows. At 230, can you get any flaps out? The higher the weight, the higher the Vref, so not as much speed to lose. The lower the weight, the lower Vref but easier to drop speed.

I bet it does it.

Yes, not standard ops. Got that.

Mike C.

Can make airframe do, and can do within opspecs and SOP are different.

Gear speed is about 230 (haven't touched a 737 since my check ride) and the flaps are 210ish to get anything that will produce drag out.

Flaps 1-2-5 are mostly lift and very little drag. Flaps 15 is about 50/50. Anything beyond is mostly drag abs and noise.

There are limitations on speed break use below 1000 AGL (prohibited)

The thought is usually you are well into the draggy flap range by that point.

91.123(b) trumps all:

"Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."

ATC said 230 to marker, I gave them 230 to marker.

Mike C.

Isn't landing gear Vle 230 knots or more? And you got speedbrakes?

Find me a 737 sim and I'll be happy to try it, hit marker at 230 and then flight idle, gear down, speed brakes, track GS, flaps out as speed allows. At 230, can you get any flaps out? The higher the weight, the higher the Vref, so not as much speed to lose. The lower the weight, the lower Vref but easier to drop speed.

I bet it does it.

Yes, not standard ops. Got that.

Mike C.

You fly 737's with a bunch of people sitting behind you. Carrier breaks? Really? You've got to do everything smoothly. Most passengers are afraid of flying as it is. You can't be horsing the airplane around. I'm talking about real world flying here, not sims, etc.

All the boards do is shake the tail.

Who had the waiver? Houston ATC?

But you said ATC can't give pilot's the instruction to exceed speed in 91.117.

If so, then such a waiver wouldn't actually work, right?

Mike C.