This goes to Scott's earlier point, but on any of the front heavy Cessna's I like to let go of the yoke on short final to check trim. This gives you a chance to correct before the flair which is when a lot of guys are surprised to find a lot of elevator force is required, they plant the nose gear, dent the firewall, and then have to list it on controller as a perfect gem.

Welcome to the CESSNA DIAMOND CLUB.

(For those non-members, the ailerons have structural ribbing which terminate on the trailing edge as little open boxes which leave the imprint on a victims forehead.)

Bending the firewall by dropping on the nose creates a huge repair.

So the advice to limit flap extension to 20 degrees is really a good idea!

Do this until the student masters airspeed/attitude and can consistently land without dropping in flat.

BH

I dont understand, using full flaps will get you slower so you will land in a nose high attitude.
Limiting to 20deg flaps would be worst and more potential to hitting the nose gear.

Marc, that's not my experience (1000+ hours in my 182).

Flaps 40 creates a slower approach speed and more nose down sight picture on final. It's true that if the student manages to plant the airplane on the mains at minimum speed, flaps 40 is better, but there's a pretty fair pitch rotation from the initial nose down on final to the land-on-mains attitude, and the airplane runs out of speed in the flare more quickly at flaps 40 than 20, so everything is happening just a little faster.

If a student does that late from flaps 40, they're more likely to hit nose-first.
If they do it way to early and high from flaps 40, they're more likely to balloon and run out of airspeed at 10 feet and plop it on, sometimes nose first if they really botch it.

Flaps 20 is much harder to get a horrible landing out of, when you're first learning to fly. Flaps 20 gives you a little more time in the roundout and that makes it easier to figure out how to get the damn thing down on the mains. (We're talking about a sub-50-hour pilot here, right? That's when landing can still be a time of sensory overload and they won't notice small differences like more experienced pilots might.)

For the record, I've probably managed a horrible landing from every possible flap angle in that 1000 hours, but fewer percentage-wise from 20 than 40. Of course, 40 was only for short fields, so that might have something to do with it as well.

I always look at the last flap setting on a Cessna as far more drag inducing than lift producing. I can get the same short field performance out of 20 as I can 40 for example. However, 40 makes over obstacles much easier and reduces speed much faster when you pull out power. I find that the easiest landing is a full flaps with some power. Very easy to control speed and you have the prop pushing some air over the tail. I see the firewall damaging nose plant a combination of trying to slow down on final (too fast), diving toward the runway with a nose down attitude, then attempting to do a perfectly timed zero power pull through horizontal, all while out of trim resulting in high elevator forces. Agreed that power off 40 can be challenging, I would avoid that until I had some time in type.

If you can land as short at 20 flaps as at 40 then you're going too fast. When I had my 182, when it was smooth out, I could fly final at 50 MPH indicated. That would allow a total runway used of about 400 feet at about 500 under gross.
I actually got to witness the Cessna porpoise that resulted in the nose wheel being busted off. We were at a backcountry strip and this guy comes in too fast. He levels out at about 10 AGL to burn off the speed and travels a ways down the runway. He decides he has to get down right now and pushes the nose over. Lands right on the nosewheel, it rotates to the mains and up in the air he goes, a little slower now. He forces the nose over again, it comes down a little steeper this time. Same thing and back in the air he goes. Third time he's getting really slow. When he pushes over this time the nose down angle was enough for me to get that feeling in my stomach of this is gonna hurt. As soon as the nose hits the entire main wheel assembly breaks off at the firewall and pogo sticks down the runway. Airplane slides to a stop. Totaled.

We just got a Cessna 182 for our backcountry stuff and have read everything I can find on the subject of this flap stuff. I've talked to a few old timer 182 guys and then practiced a bunch.

20 degrees is a great normal approach flap setting that produces nice easy sink rates at normal approach speeds. When the throttle is closed, it doesn't drop out of the sky as much. There is more time to round out and flare.... Having said that,,, we both tend to like the 30 degree setting on final.

Anything in excess of 20 degrees (30,40) requires a little power application to arrest the sink rate unless you are pretty handy with timing your flare. (Love this for short field work so far). Not a big deal at all for more experienced folks I'd think but for low hour folks, coming in with some power helps them a bunch. (more flap/more power)

Andrea has about 120 hours TT and about 6 in the 182. She likes her 30 degrees of flaps after turning final but she's learned that she hates coming up short and then dragging it in. (yeah) So, she's tightening up the pattern and enjoying the fantastic sight picture of seemingly coming in very high (as compared to before) but allowing the natural sink characteristics of the 182 to make it work. She then adds a puff of power over the numbers to arrest the sink rate while beginning to round out a bit. She's getting a feel for it most definitely. Really fun to watch a newer pilot start to get the "seat of the pants" stuff.

Next step is working on situation where you WANT to drag it in....... slow, behind the power curve stuff.

If you can land as short at 20 flaps as at 40 then you're going too fast. When I had my 182, when it was smooth out, I could fly final at 50 MPH indicated. That would allow a total runway used of about 400 feet at about 500 under gross.
I actually got to witness the Cessna porpoise that resulted in the nose wheel being busted off. We were at a backcountry strip and this guy comes in too fast. He levels out at about 10 AGL to burn off the speed and travels a ways down the runway. He decides he has to get down right now and pushes the nose over. Lands right on the nosewheel, it rotates to the mains and up in the air he goes, a little slower now. He forces the nose over again, it comes down a little steeper this time. Same thing and back in the air he goes. Third time he's getting really slow. When he pushes over this time the nose down angle was enough for me to get that feeling in my stomach of this is gonna hurt. As soon as the nose hits the entire main wheel assembly breaks off at the firewall and pogo sticks down the runway. Airplane slides to a stop. Totaled.

There are videos out there that say you can't go any slower with a 30 or 40 degree setting than you can with a 20 degree setting (King Katmai Training Video).

Not buying it.

While the lift to drag ratio in the 30 to 40 degree range favors more drag than lift, it doesn't mean there isn't some lift still in there.

It just require more power (a lot of power at 40 degrees) to over come it and wring out the lift that's still there.

You can definitely get slower at higher flaps setting. Is it important? Depends on where you are going.

Its actually easy to prove. Go to a couple thousand feet and experiment. You can get slower with heavy flaps with lots of power.

I've landed mine with 40 degrees of flaps since the day I bought her 11 years ago, on each and every landing except when practicing flaps-up landings. 60-65 mph, full nose up trim on final if no one's in back ('64 with small horizontal tail and Horton STOL - YMMV with newer planes) and either a little power or none at all depending on the field requirements and obstacles. I've done the same thing with crosswinds of any amount. I've never porpoised, never hit nose first, never had an issue. I've had to replace tires only twice for normal wear. My passengers have never complained. I'm not ace of the base either.

So, forgive me, but I just don't get the need for changes in trim on final, 20 degree flap limits, etc. The plane's a pussycat and will tolerate whatever you want to do. The "heavy nose" isn't an issue with trim. Practice it and it'll do it. Slower speed = less tire wear, less brake wear, more safety.

Maybe I'm missing something.

I have just a 100 to 200 hours PIC time in a C182.... and most of it's been several years ago.
Last one I flew recently was a friends early (light weight) tricked out STOL machine.

Quite a hoot to see a little what it could do.

One thing that has not been mentioned in the thread... that "can" be a problem on the bigger high wing cessnas is fuel quantity on board.

IIRC....The C210 and to a lesser degree the C182 were prone to a higher than normal rate of fuel exhaustion accidents.
The refueler leaving the fuel down even a small amount from the normal fill position will leave the pilot several gallon's short on fuel.
Folks tend to get on the ladder and check the fuel levels less in cessnas.
Fuel totalizers have probably helped this problem..

Sooo... for my $0.02 worth to add to this thread.... watch the fuel levels.

Leldon

Jack..
You are probably pretty good at determining the distance from touchdown at which you turn base to final... optimizing energy management Vs altitude so as to maintain 60-65 mph all the way down the glide path without adding power. (good commercial stuff).
That speed still yields decent elevator authority to arrest excessive sink rate.

The problem with newer pilots (and a bunch of veteran ones) is that many have not fully developed the 'distance to touchdown/energy management' equation quite yet. I think some of it is natural ability, some of it is experience. Frankly, some folks are just better at eye/hand coordination/depth perception.

When the typical newer pilot makes their base to final turn out too far, with 30 degrees of flaps, they simply have to add a bunch of power to get there. They learn to tighten it up. Finally, they nail that magical energy management nirvana and don't have to add power at all. (again, the standard commercial exercise).

The problem is that many get poor habits instilled and those habits stay with them. Hell, I've seen bonanza pilots land more than half way down a runway..........at BT fly ins.............when they are trying to do it right. Go to any 100 dollar lunch spot and watch the arrivals. Its like watching folks at a boat ramp on memorial day. Pretty entertaining.

The OP was about a student pilot buying a C182, and anything I (as his CFI) should know about an aircraft I had no experience in. And I got very valuable advice (thanks y'all!) about it's alleged nose-heaviness, and the need to trim heavily or use less flaps.

As it happens, my student did buy a used 182, but discovered that the aircraft had been written off twice in landing accidents (!) and no longer flew straight - so he promptly sold it to some other buyer who like him, didn't do a pre-buy (or even just an internet search as I did once I knew the N-number, which turned up the NTSB accident reports).

Lesson learned (by him) - do your research before writing a check!

Well, that's a bummer....