I think the 421C with the straight legs makes the most sense if you want payload. They seem to be considerably lighter.

Yours is faster than the 421C I flew. At 19k we were getting 200 knots using 33.5 and 1650 RPM at roughly 1600 TIT. What does the book show for fuel flow using those settings? The Chief Pilot claims their other 421 has the same performance. We initially got 1000 FPM climb at 120 knots, but at 5k that was down to 800 FPM at 120. My Duke was 210 knots at 19k using 38-40 GPH and 218-220 at 25k.[/quote]

You were cruising at 1650RPM. That's why it was "slow". We usually cruise at 32.5" and 1800RPM (40 GAL/HR). This will give you 201-220 true depending on weight and CG.

Something to think about:

Cessna is not making any piston or turbine twins. Beech is still making the Baron (albeit - very few - nice step up plane to a KA) and owns the turbine twin market with the King Air. Beech is making no pressurized piston twins. This tells you something - there is no market for new piston twins bigger than a Baron. If there were a market Cessna would be building them considering the 310 and 421 were the best useful load and cabin space twins in their class. The writing is on the wall. As the years go on the old airframes will become worn out and dispatch reliability will suffer. Parts will continue to become less available and maintenance costs will eventually be more than a supported turbine aircraft. New airframe designs will be built around the new engines that will be coming out shortly and those operations currently using 421s, 310s, etc will be forced into the new planes, King Airs, Pilatus, or will go out of business. Advancing 100LL fuel prices will accelerate the speed at which new technology becomes available.

It makes *zero* sense to continue to develop new ignition-combustion engines that require fuel different to what the auto industry uses. 100LL is a fraction of a percent of the total fuel used. Airplanes either need to start running on car fuel or Jet fuel. Anything in between is a waste of time if 100LL is to be eliminated as it will be too risky for anyone to invest in the total package knowing that Jet fuel technology will be 100% of the market sooner than later.

The "standard" fuel on the later Dukes was 202 usable. Alot have the extended fuel 232 that Todd spoke of.
The Duke I fly has the 202 fuel and a useful load of 2240 which gives full fuel useful of 1030.
The Duke vs 421 will go on forever...needless to say in my opinion...
the performance and fuel burn on both is a wash... the 421 has a better potty and an extra kid seat in the back. It seems to be better supported even though I've never had trouble with parts or support. I believe old wives tales are the reason the Duke prices are low. It is a way better airplane than a 340 but whatever.

My bad - My Duke had 2210 Useful which is 818 payload with 232 gallons in the plane. I have owned a few planes so I get them mixed up.

Yes, I do not know why they are running RPM so low. See the RAM charts below. We set it just like the chart in all phases of flight and get better performance than what Todd was seeing in the charter 421.

Pick your excuse. Marketing wins, hidden gem, efficient market...

Tim

Old KA 90's will still cost twice as much to operate than a 421C ten years from now. I agree all the old legacy pressurized twins will eventually wear out. The Duke will be first and the rest will follow. IMHO we will run out of pilots before we run out of 100LL. The market will decide and right now there is more demand for 421's than Dukes. I know my 421 value could go to zero in ten years and it doesn't matter. My total cost per passenger seat mile will still be less than a KA. If any body in GA can't afford to have their plane's value go to zero then they sould sell in the near future.

Facts are stubborn things… and of them all, physics and economics are the rudest. There is a reason why we have BIG planes powered by turbines and SMALL planes powered by piston engines (specific range / pax etc.).

(Modern) diesels will find a place in GA, but there are still growing pains (e.g. Cessna 182 JT-A is still not yet certified) and definite limitations. Then there is the little fact that an engine (or two) an airplane does not make, just look at the Diamond Twin.

Experimentals are still leaving a horrendous trail of NTSB reports.

Our livingrooms and kitchens don’t look much different than the 1960s ones my wife watches in Mad Men. Our “always on” connectivity is the only thing that may surprise (and dismay?) a time-traveler from 50 yrs ago.

Reality is that the post-WW2 GA culture is eroding away. This country used to absorb 2-3,000 twins a year. We make – what –50 now? Outside our small world is hard to even find a multi-rated pilot to sit in the right seat for some hood work! Even the dismal FAA new certificate stats are hugely overstating the numbers, as the typical new multi- ticket goes to an Asian kid who… fliess away after the 20 hrs in Seminole (to then be unable to complete a visual approach to a 2 nm runway, on a CAVU no wind day, but that’s a separate topic).

Then there are the airports… look what happens to our cities once the bicycle Nazis started targeting them. I solo-ed in Palo Alto, 200,000+ “operations” a year, Silicon Valley money SLOSHING around it; the runway is now so bad that the AF/D remarks its “undulations”. The city refuses to take resurfacing money from FAA because then they’ll lose the discretion to close it. And close it they will one day.

Yup, I’d say where there are (new) pilots and airports, airplanes will find them. The other way around, not so much.

Man, has this thread become depressing. Reality is indeed a tough pill to swallow but Gerry and Alex and others are on point. Not going to join the 421 v. Duke debate - they are both great planes for different needs/missions. Dukes have become so cheap one could have a blast riding the value to zero IF you can afford the cost of quality maintenance and ops expenses. Same goes for the 421; if you look at a B model or earlier the values aren't much different from the Duke. The 421C is in a different league, however. The market premium is truly extraordinary on those machines.

Pick your excuse. Marketing wins, hidden gem, efficient market...

Tim

I was told a while back by a marketing friend that there are really three motives to get people to buy something:
-- Sex
-- Stock
-- Souls

Each one really just represents the concepts of what is important to people. Here is the answer for the Duke:
-- It is a sexy airplane. It just looks very sweet and sexy
-- It is cheap (low cost acquisition allows me to keep my money)
-- It speaks to soul of those that have a Beech blind spot, oops I mean bias.

Tim

Yes, I do not know why they are running RPM so low. See the RAM charts below. We set it just like the chart in all phases of flight and get better performance than what Todd was seeing in the charter 421.

Could not have said it better.

Me, David and Todd are looking for a place to start our own country......

The Walmart scooter analogy hit me almost as hard as the real deal before I decided I would not visit said establishment again. I could not believe my eyes, did not think it was possible........Gave me the heebie geebies!!