Quite impressive Max!!!

I have done 2 panel updates similar to my 441, the first and almost same on a 421. On the 421 I took out the fiberglass insulation/soundproofing and replaced with Soundex. After, I do not know if it made much difference. My 441 also had fiberglass in bags. Instead of replacing it, I placed Soundex on the skin of the airplane, and the old fiberglass bags on top, towards the interior. Yes, it is almost bulging in places! My theory was that the different materials would absorb different sounds: maybe the Soundex would stop/absorb vibration while the fiberglass would absorb sound. Also placed thicker Soundex on the forward pressure bulkhead inside the front baggage to stop prop noise. So far I am super happy with the results. People that fly with me says the 441 is much more quiet than my 421, and is the quietest turboprop they have been in, and quieter than many jets. The cost of the Soundex was maybe around $2k, not much considering the other costs.

BTW, For the 441 I am talking noise levels at around 300 KTAS, the 421 was doing around 200 KTAS. For a fair comparison to other TP's the speeds should be the same, and at say 250 knots, the 441 cabin is even much more quiet!

Added up my hours per year last night. For the 421 (6 years) and prior I logged about 100 hr/yr. with the 441 I have been logging around 240 hr/yr the last 2.5 years. So comparing maintenance cost for a 421 at 100 hr/yr versus a 441 at 240 hr/yr is not really fair. The mileage covered is maybe 3x more in the 441, mainly due to better use ability: it is great to be able to do long nonstop trips with 938 lbs full fuel (2100NM range) payload: Bahamas to Scottsdale, Alaska to Scottsdale, etc. In my 421 I was airlining instead...

I think we also used soundex. I don't see much difference. You are correct however when you say that throttling back to 250kts in the upper 20s is not as noisy. Rarely happens with me though. I am usually temped out and at 100% on the engines doing 300-305kts (if no wind) using ~270lbs a side (~80gph). 96% decreases my speed by about 15-20kts and fuel consumption to about 70 gallons per hour - FL280 with 3-5 passengers, baggage, and full tanks.

I was introduced to several light jets recently but the 441 far exceeds their capabilities in useful load and endurance (although the jets were faster, flew higher, and decked out avionically). I also found it very difficult to get into the pilot seat due to my very not so small size. The center console and stick in one of the jets negated my access completely. The 441 pilot seat travels far enough backward before the stop to get me in relatively easily. The seats are wider for the passengers and the center walkway is, I think, roomier. I hope I don't really need an Embraer phenome 300 or similar. My use of commercial airlines is minimal at this point.
I am disgruntled, however, with the cost and accessibility of replacement 441 parts. I think this will get worse over time.

Hi Ali,
On the 421 I had only Soundex, and it may have been more quiet, but maybe not. On the 441 I combined Soundex with the "fiberglass" bag insulation/soundproofing. This appears to be a good combination as the different type of materials seem to compliment each other. Nice and quiet, as well as not cold or drafty, even AF FL350
Max

As a prospective 441 purchaser, I would appreciate it if you could share details on your parts problems.

Thanks,

Dan

I think that Cessna is unwilling to produce new parts for older airplanes. There is a huge backlog for these replacement parts for many of these older planes in this case the 441. Salvage parts are difficult to come by in most cases and expensive.
Engine work is not problematic - but some of the computer components are scarce and horribly overpriced.
I rarely have problematic squawks - but little things add up. Grounded once in 3 years for 1-2 weeks waiting on part(s). I allocate 50-75K a year over and above normal wear and tear. Parts clandestinely become available when you are willing to pay.

Don't get me wrong .. I would personally still make the same decision again and buy a C441. It fits my mission very admirably. There is really no comparable out there in speed, endurance, useful load, and comfort together in the same aeroplane. It way exceeds pistons in performance. C441 surpasses the light jet classes when you factor in their initial investment, less endurance, and much smaller useful load; even though these jets fly faster and higher.

The finer things in life just happen to cost a little more.

3¢

As an update to my incredibly long-winded original post, I thought I would do the same again here now that my training is done and my first cross country (literally, not 50nm) is under my belt.

I attended ProFlight in late August and it was simply the best formal training I have ever had.

I flew commercially to Wichita on October 3rd, more than a month later than expected…and it still wasn’t quite done yet. On the engines, we had to replace a fuel pump that same week, which required us flying to Toledo to pick it up from National Flight. The right engine prop governor needs to be replaced, so I can only fly at 99.5% RPM, no cruise setting. It works fine at other power settings, just not at 96% RPM. I also have issues with the GPS function on the AP, although heading bug and altitude hold work well. Fortunately, Yingling has been incredible to work with and delays were due to the plane and not to Yingling’s lack of expertise or pace of work. That has helped ease the frustration of the delay.

In addition to Initial Training at ProFlight, I needed an additional 15 hours of mentor flying, which was provided by a 441 pilot based in Wichita. Finding a mentor pilot was far more challenging than I anticipated because of scheduling conflicts. Most of the pilots that qualify as a mentor pilot also professionally fly 441’s and don’t have flexibility with scheduling. I ended up with the right guy, however, and over the course of a few days we accumulated 15 hours. Because the plane was being worked on during the day, we would fly at night and he was incredibly gracious with his time.

The morning after my training was done, the family and I embarked on a west coast trip. This trip had been planned four months ago when I thought the plane would be done in August, which would allow for delays and first flight tweaks. It was supposed to serve as a coast to coast milestone birthday present to myself, a birthday present to our daughter that loves Oregon, and a baptism by fire to long legs for the whole family. The 441 was very easy to fly and very similar to the 421C I have been flying. Heading into my 441 training, I was prepared to use the 421C if I wasn’t totally comfortable, but fortunately the 441 was a smooth transition.

The previous owner has my plane blocked on FlightAware, so unfortunately you will have to take my word on my version of events.

Leg 1 – KEQY to KLMO (Charlotte, NC to Boulder, CO) was 1,212nm direct. We flew at FL320 for a 5 hour flight. I got an aux boost pump indicator light during flight, so we diverted to Wichita to have Yingling look at it. Everything checked out and the indication light has not come back on since, so we kept flying. We flew to Boulder from Wichita and spent the night with friends.

Leg 2 – KLMO to KEUG (Boulder, CO to Eugene, OR) was 842nm direct and we flew at FL280 for a 3.25 hour flight. We departed directly over the Rockies, which was incredible. We attended the Oregon vs Washington game with friends and got to watch the Ducks worst loss in 40 years. It helped not having a vested interest in the outcome.

Leg 3 – KEUG to KCEC (Eugene, OR to Crescent City, CA) the plan was to fly along the Oregon coast to Crescent City to visit the redwood forests. I had been watching weather at Crescent City for several days and it was consistently overcast at 200ft, while minimums are 250ft. On the morning of departure, it was still overcast at 200ft with ¾ mile visibility and a forecast of improving to 400ft overcast in six hours. I have landed at minimums several times in the 421C, but I have a lot more hours in that plane and everything is second nature. I knew we could take a shot and just do a go around and divert, but it would waste the day while we sat around waiting for it to improve. I ultimately decided I was too new in the 441 to attempt an approach into minimums (or even 400ft) and we decided to fly to Seattle instead. From the file of “everything happens for a reason”, Seattle was amazing and our kids had more fun there than they would have had in Crescent City. We flew to KPAE, about 20 miles north of Seattle. Almost all the scenery was obscured by clouds except for some mountain tops, which made for fun sights.

Leg 4 – KPAE to KEQY (Seattle, WA to Charlotte, NC) 2,022nm direct and about seven hours. This type of leg is why I bought this plane because I travel to the west coast frequently and I wanted to see if we could make it non-stop. All the flight planning suggested we would, but it was still tough to wrap my brain around it. We departed around 0800 local and the race to FL350 for fuel savings was on. I had two airports along the route of flight I planned diverting to if the math stopped working. After we leveled off, I pulled power levers back (rather than condition levers because of the torque issue) to conserve fuel. TAS was around 270kts burning 360#/hour (about 54 gallons per hour for us piston guys). Tailwinds fluctuated wildly as we crossed the country, so GS was between 270kts to 340kts. I checked fuel flow against fuel quantity every thirty minutes and had my wife double check my math. We had bought portable oxygen cannisters from Sporty’s and inhaled twice every thirty minutes just because I wanted to avoid any issues from flying that high for that long. We also drank water every thirty minutes, snacked at the same time, and I stretched my legs and arms. I used Travel Johns per a thread I found on Beechtalk and the family used the potty in the back. It was weird passing so close to commercial jets, but otherwise the flying was fun. We landed with almost exactly 600# of fuel remaining, which is about an hour of flying at low altitudes. One son had a headache, but otherwise we all felt great. I was, and am, still a bit shocked and giddy.

From Friday to Monday, we flew from Charlotte, NC to Seattle, WA and back and it was amazing. I can see why the 441 has so many raving fans. I put in more than 30 hours of flying in a week and loved every second of it.

Other notes after my first week of flying:

FL280 – TAS 307 kts burning 500#/hour

FL350 – TAS 290 kts burning 390#/hour (except when I pulled back power)
Rate of Climb – 2,000fpm comfortably until about FL200, then slows down to about 1,500fpm. It gradually slows from there and hits about 500fpm between FL330 and FL350. There is a big dropoff around FL320.

Descent – we generally were told to start down about 25 minutes out, or roughly 130nm. Descent is generally 1,500fpm, but we did over 2,000fpm to help out ATC and it was comfortable. Generally seemed to step down to FL230/240 first, and then down to 11,000/14,000ft.

Noise – no louder than the 421C in my opinion and none of the kids wore headsets or complained. Far less vibration, as well. This was a huge relief.

The 441 is easier to fly than a piston. Far less fidgeting and tweaking once we were in straight and level flight. No issues about pulling power levers back or pushing them forward as long as I am mindful of max torque (down low) and EGT’s (up high).

Startup and shutdown are more complex in the 441, but muscle memory is starting to sink in and the ProFlight checklist is very precise.

Landing has more of a flare than the 421C does, but otherwise a very similar approach.

Spinning the props before and after flights is not as much of a hassle when you can go seven hours non-stop.

The Conquest Salute among line guys is not a myth.

A special thank you to Max Nerheim, who gave me far more time and information than I had any right to expect.

Wonderful report, thank you.
If they brought it back, that would sure shake things up in the TP marketplace.

Great report, great plane. Those Garrett's sure are miserly on fuel.

Great report JP! What an awesome airplane! Very glad the wait is over for you.

JP, A wonderful thread with your well written reports. Please allow a slight correction: KLMO is Longmont, Colorado, about 10 miles NE of Boulder. I've been based at Longmont for many years, and IMHO it is a better facility than Boulder. Best, Bill

Yes sir, you are correct. Our friends live in Boulder but we flew into Longmont because it had a better runway and instrument procedures.

Wow - Great report!! I'm officially salivating for a 441 now...

Robert

You mentioned you and your wife using O2 fir a bit. Do you use it continuously in cruise at 350 or do you have a quick donning mask. Single pilot operations at those high altitudes seems questionable.

We have quick donning masks that we have practiced putting on and tested. The supplemental oxygen from the canisters was precautionary only because I don't have experience being at a cabin altitude of 11,500 for extended periods of time.

Also, 441's have oxygen masks in the cabin for pax that are automatically deployed in the event of depressurization.