06 Dec 2025, 08:43 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 04 Jan 2016, 18:14 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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Username Protected wrote: This conversion sounds astronomically expensive to get approved.
Take the money you save by not doing the conversion and use it to overhaul the existing turbocharged engines once or twice and still fly the thing down low for the rest of your life... Coming out ahead in the bank. Hi Max, I am aware that financially I would be way ahead just buying a stock, top-notch turbo Navajo, and just tweaking it up little bit. There is one for sale now for under $150,000, and the only thing it misses is an air conditioning, and an altitude/VS preselect. Another $15,000 for electric air conditioner, $3,000 for an altitude preselector, and say $10,000 for a pre-buy inspection. For about $175,000 I can have a very nice ride. I loosely realize that a turbo Navajo might turn out to be my only option. In any case, all of your posts help to shape and influence my thought process, and who knows, maybe someday I change my mind altogether. KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 04 Jan 2016, 18:33 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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Username Protected wrote: I should have added that the 310 version only has one high pressure electric fuel pump per side and as you go higher (with them off) the fuel flows start to fluctuate giving the engines a surging with each fluctuation. I crawled under a 350 model (because they have a low pressure pump AND a high pressure pump system) to see how it was mounted. Surprisingly the entire wing root system would fit in the 310 with just a couple of factory mounts riveted on and wires and switches installed. I got the parts and installed a Chieftain system in the 310 with a field approval only and from then on whenever I went high I could use the low pressure constant flow pumps to even out the fuel pressure to the injector. Worked like a champ. A great airplane, a great engine package and one that won't (if maintained properly) nickle and dime you to death. Hi Cliff, That's a pretty slick and very useful modification, field approved at that. Makes me wonder why Piper didn't incorporate the dual pump system in the -310, or one pump system with dual speeds - low and high. Little bit of ingenuity and research on your part took care of this issue, cool. KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 04 Jan 2016, 19:35 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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Username Protected wrote: I've owned a 310 Navajo for 10 yrs now and absolutely love it. I am retired AF fighter pilot, retired airline, and currently fly corporate jets so I'm pretty serious about planes. I generally fly it at 60% power to increase longevity of my engines as well as saving fuel. The fuel distribution on these engines is so good that I can run lean of peak without GAMIS. Typically I fly between 5 and 10 thousand feet depending on winds though I have occasionally gone as high as 15. I don't like to wear canullas or masks so that's why I stay this low. Today on takeoff, tower warned me about many flocks of large birds near the departure end and suggested a steep climb. With 5 adults on board and 148 Gal of fuel I was climbing at 1800 fpm through 2000 feet. At 8000 feet I cruised at 175 KTAS on a total burn of just 26 GPH. We normally leave the outboard tanks half full to increase payload by 240 lbs. With that fuel load we can haul 1264 lbs of people and luggage 740NM with a 1 hrs reserve. With full tanks we can go 1050 NM with a 1hr reserve, but can only carry 1024lbs of payload. It was my wife's idea to get this specific airplane because as she said we could carry the kids and grandkids. We normally fly it with the 6 regular seats plus the potty seat, though we do keep the 8th seat in the hangar in case we ever need it. If you need to carry a lot of folks a long way safely this is a great machine for it. Hi Vicente, You and your wife certainly have a good taste, and knowledge of airplanes. I also don't care for cannulas, or oxygen masks, though I believe having masks is essential for unexpected medical, and emergency scenarios. Typical of an airline pilot, I see you are very well versed in fuel load management, and instead of starting out every trip with full fuel, as many light aircraft GA pilots do, you plan your fuel load necessary for the mission. Though the fuel distribution in your engines is good, and you get smooth LOP operation (I assume you don't have GAMI fuel injectors), have you considered installing them? The experts on GAMIs say you tighten the distribution further, smooth out the engines some more, and reduce your fuel flows as much as half a gallon or more per hour per engine, which over time will pay for the GAMIs. Some people like the twin Cessna looks, some like the vintage Cessna 310 tuna tip tanks. As for myself, I love the Piper Navajo's clean and classy looks, excellent design, and performance. Thanks for sharing your experience. KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 04 Jan 2016, 21:14 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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Username Protected wrote: KW - I have read through this entire intriguing thread. The proposition intrigued me because it is something I would never even consider, and therefore wanted to understand the reasoning. My 2 cents would be to echo what many have already said in previous posts. If you can find the airplane you want (i.e. NA engines), buy it. I would not go through the irrecoverable cost and hassle of "downgrading" one of these. The expense and headaches you will go through converting an existing airplane will far outweigh any cost savings you are seeing. These are old airplanes and the moment you start opening stuff up, it is almost guaranteed you will face new "discoveries", and by the time you are done, you will wish you had never started - especially on a mod that diminishes value rather than enhances it. Also this: I want a color navigation, terrain, traffic, as well as weather displays. Full weather capability, good autopilot with a Flight Director, and an altitude/VS preselect. will probably be either completely or partially absent in any NA Navajo you find, as it will probably be a neglected old bird which has been flown on a shoe string budget. The guys who can afford these niceties, usually were flying the more capable Turbo Navajos. That means you will have to incur additional cost in upgrading the airplane which is additional sunk cost. I would suggest rather finding a very nice Turbo Navajo with solid engines and good avionics and start enjoying your traveling machine. A properly flown Turbo Navajo in experienced hands like yours and treated with care and good judgement (you can always throttle back you know), will last a life time if the engines are solid to begin with. These are rugged birds - I don't know that I share your concern with MX costs if the engines are treated with care. Furthermore, the turbos will always provide options if you need them. Plus, you'll be able to quickly flip it the day you decide to move on. Sometimes its hard to change our minds once we are set on an idea, but perhaps the cost savings you are seeing are a mirage once you take the all-in cost into account and the headache may be significantly higher. Just my 2 cents. Hi Alex, You wouldn't even consider converting a turbo to normal aspiration. I respect that. Legendary aviator named Carl Millard of Toronto thought otherwise. He thought that by ridding of the turbos, he will have a lighter, simpler, cooler running, cheaper at overhaul time, longer TBO, more fuel efficient airplane operating below 10000 feet. Together, with the help of another aviation legend Bruce Bullock, they converted six turbo Navajos to normal aspiration. It made a lot of sense to them, and so it does to me. The first option, a very nice, fully equipped, 1980's turbo Navajo, converted to normally aspirated power would be expensive $310,000 - $360,000. The second option, an original, or converted normally aspirated Navajo (impossible to find) completely rebuilt/equipped would run the bill up to somewhere in the $345,000 vicinity, or more, also taking years of work. The third and easiest option would be to take that very nice, fully equipped, 1980's turbo Navajo, tweak it up little bit, all inclusive for a "mere" $175,000, and enjoy aviating happily ever after! Everything we see, hear, smell, and feel, shapes our thoughts. Maybe someday, all the folks insisting on a turbo, will shape my mind to see, through the Navajo's nacelle cooling louvers, two red-hot, glowing turbos, and choose the third option. I still have plenty of time to mature to my decission. For now, I am watching the market.  KW
Last edited on 04 Jan 2016, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 04 Jan 2016, 22:08 |
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Joined: 03/05/14 Posts: 2977 Post Likes: +3157 Company: WA Aircraft Location: Fort Worth, TX (T67)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza E33C
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Username Protected wrote: who knows, maybe someday I change my mind altogether. KW And buy a Beechcraft! 
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 05 Jan 2016, 00:43 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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That won't be easy. Just look at the photo towards the top of page 4 in this thread. See that cool airplane? Imagine that awesome Lycoming IO-540-M1A5 behind that 3 bladed air screw! No turbos! All from Pennsylvania. KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 05 Jan 2016, 01:05 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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By the way guys (any gals here?), I think this forum is becoming addictive. Also, we need more, a lot more Smilies here!
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 05 Jan 2016, 21:26 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Krzysztof,
Have you seen the Twin Bo forum on here? Just sayin'... Hi Chris, Yes, I did look it up some. Interesting and nostalgic airplane. KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 05 Jan 2016, 22:42 |
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Joined: 05/14/11 Posts: 860 Post Likes: +622
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Username Protected wrote: We normally fly it with the 6 regular seats plus the potty seat, though we do keep the 8th seat in the hangar in case we ever need it. If you need to carry a lot of folks a long way safely this is a great machine for it. Vicente, Exactly. If you ever find yourself wanting some extra 'fuel money' and not needing that 8th seat sitting on the hangar floor, please give me a PM shout. If it's the far back right side seat [that's technically the 8th seat], I will buy it and the mounting hardware from you at any time.  Thanks, Mark
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 06 Jan 2016, 22:17 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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I understand that great advances have been made in aircraft soundproofing and insulation. I have seen the term "super soundproofing" being used. Sounds very promising. Flying a twin without headsets, other than take-off and landing, being able to comfortably communicate aboard an airplane would be neat. Does anybody have experience in this area? I would like to learn about it.
KW
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 07 Jan 2016, 03:44 |
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Joined: 05/14/11 Posts: 860 Post Likes: +622
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Krzysztof, Bless your heart. I am glad there are people here to assist you in your search in any way we possibly can. I also find it kind of humorous... and a sad testament, that you have to come to a Beechcraft website to get the information you need -- and the aviation comraderie, to support your purchasing a Piper product. Super sound proofing is usually just a matter of thicker insulation blankets, thicker windows and better door and window seals. I usually fly most flat engine craft with just a Telex 650 Pro (which has essentially zero noise cancelling ability) so I can hear the health of the engines. Plus, it's really light on my head. It's like the "Un-headset" headset. The Travel Air is about second - only to the Twinkie - in quietness in a piston twin. Heck... it might even take first on many of them. Usually just use a hand-mike in those, unless it's really hard IFR. The Navajo is of course much more of a louder symphony, but it doesn't usually bother me. Radials... well, that's another story altogether. Two words: David Clark. Very good insulation blankets that can be cut to fit are made nowadays, but you'll have to wreck your interior and almost start over from scratch to install them. It is primarily for the benefit of your passengers in a cabin-class plane like a Navajo. In a Baron, it pays off a little more for everyone involved, being sandwiched betwixt two growling Continentals and their fans turning @ 2,300 RPM barely right in front of you. To me, it's only worth doing if you were going down that road of interior refurbishment anyway. Like splitting an engine case to do a crankshaft AD inspection and not going ahead and overhauling the engine while it's sitting there in pieces. At any rate, we hope you continue to feel unrestrained in coming to Beechcraft here to solve all of your Piper needs.  ~~ Mark
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Post subject: Re: Turbo Navajo to Normally Aspirated Navajo Conversion Posted: 09 Jan 2016, 04:15 |
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Joined: 09/05/13 Posts: 125 Post Likes: +7
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I think at a certain point in an airplane's life, it is desirable to open-up the interior, to inspect it, clean it, make sure there is no "inferno waiting to happen" in there, perhaps redo the interior, at which time soundproofing could be addressed.
KW
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