BeechTalk - BT - The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 12:21

Username Protected wrote:

Don - That specific P.1ìì0 is the only one still existing with that splitted windshield.

I know Piaggio has some spare parts available, but starting from S/N 1004 (the first A/C sold to a customer) the windshield is the same of the later ones.

S/N 1001 (first flight A/C) was scrapped many years ago because reached the cycles limits.
S/N 1003 fuselage was used for structural fatigue tests (still going on in 2014 when the factory moved to the new plant).

It may be interesting to know that the first fuselages (20, IIRC) were built by Gates in US, sent as parts and finally assembled in Italy.

Later, all made in Italy... :rock:

Daniele

The first 12 actually and they were made at a tool and die company a mile and half west of Mid Continent airport (KICT). The little warehouse factory is still there.....

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 13:13

Username Protected wrote:

Some ATC remarks as I recall them...

Center, Airliner 123, can we get 390 it's a little bumpy here.
Airliner 123 if you want 390 we'll have to turn you due to traffic ahead at 390 or wait about 20 more miles.
Airliner 123 What's the traffic at 390???
Center: It's a P-180... Turboprop
Airliner 123; What's he doin' up here???
My reply; Same thing you're doin' down there. BTW, it's smooth at 390.

This happened MANY times.
Approach. Citation 123 turn right to 230, following a Piaggio for runway 23R.
Citation driver, why are we sequenced behind a turboprop??
Appr. Well he's 20 knots faster than you right now.

Piaggio 320CA slow to 150 you're following a Citation and overtaking rapidly.

Piaggio 320CA we have to move you up or down for traffic you want higher or lower?
We'll take FL 410 Piaggio 320CA
Piaggio 320CA climb and maintain FL 410.
Full disclosure... 80% of the flights I was on were either just me or just me and a sales rep. It was easy to demonstrate the capability of the airplane.

Prior to my years flying the P-180 I had the pleasure of flying three different models of King Airs and the Hawker 800XP I loved the Hawker because it was the first time I was able to circumnavigate weather by flying over it. I never dreamed I would be able to do the same thing in a turboprop. Two years later I was introduced to the P-180 and i was instantly hooked.
Seeing lightening below you while pushing along at 39 or 41 k is a great experience.

I think that someone somewhere owes you a commission! Nice to read some raw enthusiasm.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 13:48

Username Protected wrote:

That is an awesome PDF Daniele. Personally I really enjoyed seeing the picture on page 6 and two other pages. Many people think that picture is photo shopped but it is not. That flight was one of many during a two day picture taking with famed aviation photographer Paul Bowen. He was sitting in the tail gunner position of a WWII B-25 and I was flying the P-180. For that particular picture we made, I think, three attempts. I was to fly at the photo platform until the last possible moment and then the B-25 broke right while I broke left. The overtaking speed of the P-180 made this very difficult despite the fact that I was as slow as I could get while still being able to pitch up towards the camera. I like this picture because the P-180 is so gorgeous but also because I'm proud of the center line flying. (The bomber crew and myself as we were in close formation during many of the pictures) Had the shutter snapped the picture a mili-second sooner the vertical fin would also have been on the center line but we had just started the breakaway and thus the slight left turn.
Flying behind the B-25 was two of funnest days of my flying career. I was warned very casually by the B-25 crew that wake turbulence would likely "kick the Piaggio out" when getting too close but don't worry, we'll just form up again start over. Having completed upset training years prior and having some aerobatics experience I still raised an eyebrow at the thought of getting into wake turbulence and being 'kicked out." As it turned out the P-180 did get kicked out often when too close to the wake turbulence of the bomber but that was exactly what Paul wanted in order to get pictures of the P-180 peeling off at a 45+/- degree bank. Too close directly behind the bomber induced a significant hum or buzz of the forward wing. I knew the one piece wing was strong enough to lift the entire airplane but I sure didn't want it out there buzzing up and down. 10 feet higher or lower eliminated the buzz.
Those two days further increased my passion for the P-180. It truly is the finest, most capable turboprop ever built.

Arthur - Thanks for this exciting narrative... That picture has been used many time for advertisements and brochure, I've never imagined one day to "meet" that pilot and have a disclosure of what was behind the shoot. :cheers:

I've been once part of a formation flight too, during the latest SSEC curves flight testing. While it is less scenic and exciting than your, here is my shoot depicting the S/N 1002 chasing in close formation with another P.180.

I was on the right seat and from down of my SEP PPL Mr. Villi (I'm sure you know him, and Mr. Vitale that was on the other plane, too) told me: "don't touch anything and mind your instruments!"...

Still exciting, though...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 15:46

I flew with all three Italian test pilots. Danilo,, Lorenzo Villi, and Marchelo Vitale. With each of them I learned a lot and with each of them I was humbled by their knowledge and skill. I consider myself an average pilot, they all exhibited a very precise and deliberate expertise.
By the way, I was always treated extremely well at the old factory. Everyone was very gracious and helpful. I always enjoyed going to the factory to bring an airplane to the U.S. I never made it to the new facility but I will always treasure my visits to oldest, continuously operated aircraft factory in the world.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 16:03

[/quote]

I think that someone somewhere owes you a commission! Nice to read some raw enthusiasm.[/quote]

I think I was well paid at Piaggio America and the commissions were fair until someone in management took them away.
The airplane really sells itself but I will say without question the Demonstration Pilots enthusiasm and honesty about the airplanes performance sold more airplanes than any of the sales group personnel could. I had a great group in our small flight department. Great guys, passionate about the airplane and eager to see it succeed. One has gone on to Southwest Airlines and another to a fractional company flying something big. I quit flying all together for 10 years until a friend of mine encouraged me to get a Bonanza and start exercising my brain a little more. I miss the P-180 but I sure like being home with my family and my dogs.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Nov 2020, 20:33

Username Protected wrote:

I've been once part of a formation flight too, during the latest SSEC curves flight testing. While it is less scenic and exciting than your, here is my shoot depicting the S/N 1002 chasing in close formation with another P.180.

It's so great to have the you and Arthur providing your first hand experiences with the group. Thank you.

When you refer to SSEC curves, is it in relation to the ADC AD with respect to RVSM accuracy? In Canada we have to comply with EASA's ADs, and as such we are in the midst of acquiring the new ADC's and DCM for our Piaggio. Are there really P180's busting altitudes such that an expensive AD is required? The sad part is the customer is on the hook for the cost when it looks like the data provided to Collins from Piaggio was incorrect in the first place. That's just my outside interpretation and might be completely wrong. I don't believe it's yet a requirement in the US.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Nov 2020, 05:32

Username Protected wrote:

I've been once part of a formation flight too, during the latest SSEC curves flight testing. While it is less scenic and exciting than your, here is my shoot depicting the S/N 1002 chasing in close formation with another P.180.

It's so great to have the you and Arthur providing your first hand experiences with the group. Thank you.

When you refer to SSEC curves, is it in relation to the ADC AD with respect to RVSM accuracy? In Canada we have to comply with EASA's ADs, and as such we are in the midst of acquiring the new ADC's and DCM for our Piaggio. Are there really P180's busting altitudes such that an expensive AD is required? The sad part is the customer is on the hook for the cost when it looks like the data provided to Collins from Piaggio was incorrect in the first place. That's just my outside interpretation and might be completely wrong. I don't believe it's yet a requirement in the US.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Nov 2020, 05:51

Username Protected wrote:

I flew with all three Italian test pilots. Danilo,, Lorenzo Villi, and Marchelo Vitale. With each of them I learned a lot and with each of them I was humbled by their knowledge and skill.

They are all former Italian Air Force fighter and test pilots... :eek:

Capt. Danilo Cazzola retired some years ago.
During the years other joined the team, some dedicated to the P.1HH program, but all ex IAF

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Nov 2020, 18:57

Ok,
Enough drooling.
First things first

Can I get Reasonable insurance for this proper upgrade for me Aerostar?

2400hrs TT
400 hours in twin Piston Aerostar
ZERO TURBINE :hide:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 13:03

Username Protected wrote:

Ok,
Enough drooling.
First things first

Can I get Reasonable insurance for this proper upgrade for me Aerostar?

2400hrs TT
400 hours in twin Piston Aerostar
ZERO TURBINE :hide:

Get with Tom at Wings Insurance - Great people!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 14:32

Daniele, thanks for sharing that wonderful pdf. What a great document that is!

You seem to know quite a bit about the history of the Avanti, so you probably know that Ohio State University contributed quite a bit to its aerodynamic development and conducted a lot of wind tunnel testing in their 8' subsonic wind tunnel facility. I trained under Dr. Gerry Gregorek who developed the Avanti transonic laminar flow airfoils and also under Dr. John Lee who developed the initial Avanti prop designs. I think a couple of pictures from your pdf may be from the OSU wind tunnel testing.

Dr. Gerry Gregorek was one of the most talented engineers I had ever met. He not only had a brilliant command of the mathematics behind aerodynamics but was a very practical engineer and contributed directly to many aircraft and spacecraft during his tenure, including the SR71, B2, X-20 Dyna-Soar, Bellanca Skyrocket, Avanti, etc.

Dr. Gregorek was truly one of the great ones and he always spoke very, very fondly of the Avanti and his involvement with the design.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 15:02

Don - Yes, I'm aware about the extensive use of US facilities during the P.180 development.

It was because of the very extreme aerodynamic configuration requiring expertise and premises not available elsewhere. Piaggio had to obtain a concession from the US government to "export" the know-how behind the development of the wing profiles.

In addition to the Ohio State University, other wind tunnels were used at the Wichita University, at General Dynamics in San Diego and at Boeing in Seattle, each for a different detail.

Only two wind tunnels were used in Europe: the one at Piaggio in Finale Ligure (oldest in Europe) and at former Aermacchi in Varese.

I'm getting old, but still too young to have worked through that era...

Daniele

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 19:02

Some thoughts on the market:

I've corresponded, in the last few weeks, with several BTers who are looking or getting ready to look for a P180. As of today there are 11 airplanes on Controller but I know for certain that 2 are under contract. There are 3 that are in Europe. That only leaves 6 available in the U.S. and it's possible that one or more of those is also under contract. That compares to 14 in early summer when I started looking (Mark and I had a little debate about that a few pages back!).

Controller isn't the only place. I found 5 other planes by looking at every listing site I could find. I found another 3-4 for sale, but not advertised by talking to a lot of brokers. I found 4 others, all former Avantair planes that had new interiors, paint and were all recertified by talking to a 135 operator who owns 7-8 of them. I also found a plane or two from talking to the guys at ICJS who were super helpful. I'm sure Broadies and other shops also know folks thinking of selling.

So, planes are out there but a lot of what is available is either a)older or b)higher time. If that doesn't concern you there are more options.

A couple of the European airplanes are pretty nice. It is probably a chore to get them here but it can be done. Plan on $50k to do it from what I was told.

These planes tend to sit on the market a long time. The reason is they are usually overpriced. It seems like it takes more than one offer for owners to get educated and serious. Most, but not all, of the brokers have not done a good job of educating their clients. It seems like a lot of them just want the listing so they can get calls. Maybe they convert callers to something else.

With that in mind you have to be willing to make serious, lowball offers. By low ball I don't mean below value, I mean significantly below asking. And you need to know what things cost to fix because most of the planes, especially older ones, have issues that need attention. And owners have to learn from the buyer (since the brokers are either lazy, incompetent or won't do their job for some other reason) how to adjust value for interior, paint, avionics, gear, coming inspections, etc.

I've been watching this market, and corresponding with brokers, for two years and seriously since January. I think prices have stabilized and are trending up. While you can find more inventory, as I did, much of it is older, higher time, etc. The bargains might be gone but the only way to find out is to make some offers.

If I was looking to get educated again I'd talk to these people:

Orion in Italy - they have lots of Avanti info, know the planes better than any broker I talked to and have good handle on European airplanes availability.
Wetzel in U.S. (Bryon Mobley)
ICJS (Mark James or Dean McKenzie
I'd also talk to Southwest Aviation Specialties about parts. (David Guzman)

If I was buying again I'd do the same thing I did last time and hire Neal Schwartz to represent me. I know of another BTer who has and I doubt there is anybody in the world that is more up to date on fleet availability and what it takes to do a deal right now. There are lots of potential gotchas in a buying any turbine aircraft but knowing how to manage the prebuy and negotiations is important even if you're a savvy buyer.

I'm sure the guys here who are looking are talking to Anthony and Mark too. They were super helpful to me and I know we all want to help make the BT P180 fleet bigger!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 19:13

Actually, all of the Avantis on the market are just not worth it.

Probably best to not even look.

And Tony is quite wrong, I would recommend not even contact any broker, yet alone ones that Tony mentioned.

I'll let everyone know when it's safe to look at the P-180 market again...I'd say in another few weeks and you can fight over whatever is left then ;-)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Nov 2020, 21:42

Username Protected wrote:

Actually, all of the Avantis on the market are just not worth it.

Probably best to not even look.

And Tony is quite wrong, I would recommend not even contact any broker, yet alone ones that Tony mentioned.

I'll let everyone know when it's safe to look at the P-180 market again...I'd say in another few weeks and you can fight over whatever is left then ;-)

Haha! I’m glad to see this plane getting the recognition it deserves. I’m sorry I’m not able to make a move sooner. I guess I’ll end up with some high-time sloppy seconds!