21 Dec 2025, 16:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:17 |
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Joined: 07/21/08 Posts: 5846 Post Likes: +7300 Location: Decatur, TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
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Username Protected wrote: Am I emotionally invested? Or just asking questions that adequately parry baseless claims?
Draw the polar and answer your own question. Yes? Or if not, based on that information tell us why? Or if you can't draw the necessary polar theoretically, and or do not understand the implications is that the place to start before commenting?
I wonder if we know some of the same people in the oil biz? I spent the last 35 years or so in the Permian and Barnett. Who are you currently working with? A good friend of mine is in the recycling biz also and operates all over the US.
_________________ I'm just here for the free snacks
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:24 |
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Joined: 02/25/16 Posts: 288 Post Likes: +170 Location: Tupelo, MS
Aircraft: 182R
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Username Protected wrote: Changing direction. How is the Audi Raptor going to outperform the Iv-p I owned with 350hp that weighs 1000lbs less empty. 260kts lop at reasonable temps at 15.5 gph. It goes about 1250 nm on 96 gallons with an hour of reserves. I can say that the wing loading of the Iv requires above average pilot skills. The raptor will require supreme piloting skills.
That belt drive is horrifying , any other applications this system has been successful in? It wont outperform it. I'd be shocked if the Raptor does more than 200kts. Some ultralights use belt redrives.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:25 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 9811 Post Likes: +16782 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: Nope, since I earned my aerospace engineering degree from a real university, I was able to write down actual numbers and results and I didn’t need to waste space writing down formulas and definitions from a Google search.
How much brake hp will it take to move that airframe at 300 ktas at FL240-280?
How many gallons per hour will it take to produce that hp?
How much will the fuel weigh for a 3600 nm range at 300 knots? At 200 knots?
It is not particularly difficult to estimate the range of likely answers for each of these, assuming you know what you are doing.
Next, do the answers above seem realistic?
Is it likely the engine he chose will be able to produce that power with a reasonable lifespan?
Can the airframe carry the necessary weight of fuel and volume of fuel?
If you do this exercise, you will understand why people are skeptical and why no one else has built a plane with anything close to the promised performance despite obvious market demand for such a plane.
Back into that. Draw a polar that meets those specs for your number 1 and post it. Given your degree that should not take long. <--- Responses that will never come. Because when it does.... 2 and 3 fall like dominoes.
We calculate/estimate with drag coefficients, polars are just plots of the resulting equations. FYI, Your fixation with polars was one of the red flags that you didn’t likely know what you were talking about.
As for your second point, yes, if you make completely unrealistic assumptions about the drag, it is easy to show how it will exceed 300 knots on less than 15 gallons per hour. Even then, the 3600 nm range is still going to require a significant amount of fuel. Around 200 gallons or 1400 lbs with reserves. Even if he knocks 1000 lbs off his empty weight you are still not carrying full fuel and 4 people with a reasonable wing loading. Bigger wing makes the drag go up, so weight is a critical factor. You can argue the max range is at a much lower speed and that means less fuel required, but is an 18 hour flight time reasonable? More than that? But again, we started with an unrealistic assumption so these are all fairytale numbers to begin with.
With a realistic drag assumption, fuel burn at 300 knots climbs into the 20’s and everything else gets unreasonable really fast. <——- [ Hint: I just gave you what you need to know to back into a close approximation of my best case drag estimate and plot the polar you want to see.]
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:25 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 5318 Post Likes: +5309
Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Username Protected wrote: Changing direction. How is the Audi Raptor going to outperform the Iv-p I owned with 350hp that weighs 1000lbs less empty. 260kts lop at reasonable temps at 15.5 gph. It goes about 1250 nm on 96 gallons with an hour of reserves. I can say that the wing loading of the Iv requires above average pilot skills. The raptor will require supreme piloting skills.
That belt drive is horrifying , any other applications this system has been successful in? 1.) Is the boundary level airflow velocity over the fuselage of the IV-P higher or lower than the same over the Raptor? 2.) Why? 3.) Implications to parasitic drag? 4.) Parasitic drag is what percentage of total drag? 5.) Parasitic drag increases is linearly with speed? Next.
Chris, I don’t know what any of this %#$@ means but I do hold an ATP and have owned close to 20 diverse airplanes from 0-200 powered wooden experimentals, seaplanes, lancairs, rockets, biplanes, piston twins, turboprops and jets and I just can’t possibly imagine the raptor going more than 170kts off this engine/airframe weight until the belt breaks and it becomes a gliding brick.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:43 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: We calculate/estimate with drag coefficients, polars are just plots of the resulting equations. FYI, Your fixation with polars was one of the red flags that you didn’t likely know what you were talking about.
As for your second point, yes, if you make completely unrealistic assumptions about the drag, it is easy to show how it will exceed 300 knots on less than 15 gallons per hour. Even then, the 3600 nm range is still going to require a significant amount of fuel. Around 200 gallons or 1400 lbs with reserves. Even if he knocks 1000 lbs off his empty weight you are still not carrying full fuel and 4 people with a reasonable wing loading. Bigger wing makes the drag go up, so weight is a critical factor. You can argue the max range is at a much lower speed and that means less fuel required, but is an 18 hour flight time reasonable? More than that? But again, we started with an unrealistic assumption so these are all fairytale numbers to begin with.
With a realistic drag assumption, fuel burn at 300 knots climbs into the 20’s and everything else gets unreasonable really fast. <——- [ Hint: I just gave you what you need to know to back into a close approximation of my best case drag estimate and plot the polar you want to see.]
That is why I am suggesting starting with a theoretical polar you know mathematically works on paper. Just draw it out on graph paper man. Then look at air frames on both sides of that polar. Which one does this ship look like. If you can not invert the problem to the theoretical answer in your head this exercise will never make sense. https://fs.blog/2013/10/inversion/Once you do.... It took me till I was 42 to learn this mental exercise... Charlie Munger man.. Dude is WISE!!!! and rich. Which came first? :-) You are smart. You can figure this out. Will you do the work?
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:47 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: 1.) Is the boundary level airflow velocity over the fuselage of the IV-P higher or lower than the same over the Raptor?
2.) Why?
3.) Implications to parasitic drag?
4.) Parasitic drag is what percentage of total drag?
5.) Parasitic drag increases is linearly with speed?
Next.
Chris, I don’t know what any of this %#$@ means but I do hold an ATP and have owned close to 20 diverse airplanes from 0-200 powered wooden experimentals, seaplanes, lancairs, rockets, biplanes, piston twins, turboprops and jets and I just can’t possibly imagine the raptor going more than 170kts off this engine/airframe weight until the belt breaks and it becomes a gliding brick.
I get it man. The belt/drive train/reduction mechanism is the weak point. We shall see. Yes?
So looking into that....
Question.. will the stress on the belt/drive rig ever be greater than when the ship is tethered and running full out on the ground on a cold morning at sea level?
Can it be?
Why not?
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:59 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: Am I emotionally invested? Or just asking questions that adequately parry baseless claims?
Draw the polar and answer your own question. Yes? Or if not, based on that information tell us why? Or if you can't draw the necessary polar theoretically, and or do not understand the implications is that the place to start before commenting?
Evening Douglas. I wonder if we know some of the same people in the oil biz? I spent the last 35 years or so in the Permian and Barnett. Who are you currently working with? A good friend of mine is in the recycling biz also and operates all over the US.
Good question. You on the exploration, production, or transport side of things? What operators you working for? A few of the folks from that industry (a hundred or so) are in my contacts on my linkedin profile.)
I worked in the Eagle Ford (mostly in the valley North of Laredo) and the Permian/Bone Springs/Wolfcamp/Sprayberry on the fracking/water recycling side.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-close-2165b746/
You'll get a kick out this. A vid I made right before the last bust. 30K views.. first try. :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irFKLlpPCp4&t=7s
Last edited on 25 Oct 2019, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 21:59 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 5318 Post Likes: +5309
Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Inversions, polars and the Socratic method is a good way to analyze aircraft performance?
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:15 |
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Joined: 07/21/08 Posts: 5846 Post Likes: +7300 Location: Decatur, TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
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Username Protected wrote: Good question. You on the exploration, production, or transport side of things? What operators you working for? A few of the folks from that industry (a hundred or so) are in my contacts on my linkedin profile.) I worked in the Eagle Ford (mostly in the valley North of Laredo) and the Permian/Bone Springs/Wolfcamp/Sprayberry on the fracking/water recycling side. https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-close-2165b746/You'll get a kick out this. A vid I made right before the last bust. 30K views.. first try. :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irFKLlpPCp4&t=7sI was a drilling contractor, but I was also a partner in the frac water supply biz. I sold out in 2012, and retired last year.
_________________ I'm just here for the free snacks
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:18 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: Inversions, polars and the Socratic method is a good way to analyze aircraft performance? That was clever! Nice job. Inverting the problem to be solved by using the Socratic method to understand the problem is the only way to come up with a theoretical polar? And analyzing that theoretical polar and comparing it to the offered solution is the best way to determine if what we see will perform as advertised? Yes.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:19 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: Good question. You on the exploration, production, or transport side of things? What operators you working for? A few of the folks from that industry (a hundred or so) are in my contacts on my linkedin profile.) I worked in the Eagle Ford (mostly in the valley North of Laredo) and the Permian/Bone Springs/Wolfcamp/Sprayberry on the fracking/water recycling side. https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-close-2165b746/You'll get a kick out this. A vid I made right before the last bust. 30K views.. first try. :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irFKLlpPCp4&t=7sI was a drilling contractor, but I was also a partner in the frac water supply biz. I sold out in 2012, and retired last year.
Nice!
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:27 |
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Joined: 05/06/14 Posts: 7346 Post Likes: +9040 Company: The French Tradition Location: KCRQ - Carlsbad - KTOA
Aircraft: 89 A36 TN, 78 Tiger
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Who thinks that this Chris guy may be related to the Raptor? Smart: for sure. Invested: For sure Related... Hum... 
_________________ Bonanza 89 A36 Turbo Norm Grumman Tiger 78
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:32 |
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Joined: 10/06/19 Posts: 139 Post Likes: +45 Company: Water Cleaners
Aircraft: Pilatus PC-12 NG
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Username Protected wrote: Who thinks that this Chris guy may be related to the Raptor? Smart: for sure. Invested: For sure Related... Hum...  That is a fair question Frank. Full disclosure. In anyway other than watching the vids on youtube and chatting hear I have Zero other interest in the project. And have never met anyone affiliated with it. Would like to. Think the guy is brilliant, and more important has guts. Not the charge a machine gun type. The I can plow a field from dusk till dawn type for months on end kind. Rare combo. That is a logical conclusion to come to given it appears I have been shilling for the project. I just think it will work, and for the reasons I have given. Am open to the idea I am missing something.. just have not heard it yet. --Chris
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:34 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 5318 Post Likes: +5309
Aircraft: C501, R66, A36
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Username Protected wrote: Inversions, polars and the Socratic method is a good way to analyze aircraft performance? That was clever! Nice job. Inverting the problem to be solved by using the Socratic method to understand the problem is the only way to come up with a theoretical polar? And analyzing that theoretical polar and comparing it to the offered solution is the best way to determine if what we see will perform as advertised? Yes.
No. The best way to see if it will perform as advertised is to stick the cowling on it and shove the throttle up and rotate it. It will certainly be disappointing.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 25 Oct 2019, 22:50 |
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Joined: 05/06/14 Posts: 7346 Post Likes: +9040 Company: The French Tradition Location: KCRQ - Carlsbad - KTOA
Aircraft: 89 A36 TN, 78 Tiger
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Username Protected wrote: Who thinks that this Chris guy may be related to the Raptor? Smart: for sure. Invested: For sure Related... Hum...  That is a fair question Frank. Full disclosure. In anyway other than watching the vids on youtube and chatting hear I have Zero other interest in the project. And have never met anyone affiliated with it. Would like to. Think the guy is brilliant, and more important has guts. Not the charge a machine gun type. The I can plow a field from dusk till dawn type for months on end kind. Rare combo. That is a logical conclusion to come to given it appears I have been shilling for the project. I just think it will work, and for the reasons I have given. Am open to the idea I am missing something.. just have not heard it yet. --Chris
Just saying: You show up a couple of weeks ago Obviously very smart, with way too many fast and precise answers. You supposedly fly a Pilatus PC12ng, which is no joke. Only post about "The Raptor" Defend him with very strong facts. Sign :"Fly Raptor, fly" Hum... Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that this Raptor guy is trying hard to make his dream come through. But Gravity and basic laws that govern on this earth are still in effect here. His claims were ludicrous to start with. For me, once you claim something, you need to do it. If you can't, it means only 2 things: You are a liar, or you are incompetent. Sorry, the "dreamer" category is closed past the age of 15, or the minute money changes hands.
_________________ Bonanza 89 A36 Turbo Norm Grumman Tiger 78
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