I've never understood the A* market and radically different pricing. Seems like you can always find plenty of 700's in the sub 200K price range with a wide array of equipment, engine times and P&I. Then you'll see the occasional clean example for $500-600k. Even if you figure list price for avionics, interior and paint on a given solid example of a 700, I just can't see how you can get to 500k+. I can't imagine they actually sell at that price so it makes me wonder why they list them at that price range.

From what I've seen, when you dig into the high priced aircraft examples, they have low time U2A's, extensive mods from the factory (like 5.5PSI, high gross weight option, HAT section, winglets and other things) and all glass avionics. The final model built, the 700P, seems to extract a premium of several hundred AMU's. The result is an airframe that literally costs over $600k to the owner.

The folks who have these high priced birds can let them languish on the market for years before they find another well heeled buyer. The A* requires a different type of owner. They have to be totally sold on the idea and willing to accept that it can be a difficult aircraft to own, fly and maintain. The average pilot with that kind of money is probably looking instead to a SETP or maybe even a brand new Cirrus instead of taking on the awesome responsibility of keeping up a bit of temperamental history.

The A* has a reputation from those that know of being an exceptionally fine flying machine. Perhaps the #1 best GA piston twin ever conceived and built. The problem as I see it are those two large and complex engines that can go through expensive parts very quickly. Finding a good mechanic who has worked on them before is getting harder and harder too. They simply aren't growing new ones. Throw in the complex hydraulic system, extremely crowded and tight cowls and a 20 minute preflight and many would just say "I'll go look at a nice SETP instead."

I certainly hope Jim Christy can stay alive long enough to find a successor. Without him and Aerostar Aircraft, the plane becomes an orphan and will probably be relegated to the scrap heap at some point. If someone can take up the banner and keep Aerostar Aircraft a going concern, the fleet may last another 50+ years. There is no life limit on the airframe. One day someone will switch out those temperamental gas engines for some modern (futuristic) diesels. That will be something!

John,

I can agree with much of what you said. I studied the Aerostar line pretty closely before purchasing mine. The end game was that the 601P was perfect for me with bullet proof turbo normalized engines and intercoolers. It was also my conclusion that I wouldn't even consider the additional expense of the "big engine" birds. But, there are guys that just love them and the extra 20 knots they get at altitude are worth every dollar to them.

As for Mr. Christy, I've never done a penny's business with him. The airplane is well supported by a multitude of shops and parts suppliers. I've never had to make more than two calls to have any part shipped in 24 hours.

The hydraulic system is a bit complicated, but there are very well written manuals that make trouble shooting and repair pretty straight forward with generic parts like parts house O-rings.

All the other "systems": turbos, alternators, starters, heaters, vac pumps, brakes etc.,etc., they come from the same 3rd party suppliers as other makes.

As for the disadvantage of being "orphaned", recalling some of the prices Beech charges for the parts and service they do supply, Beech owners would be a hell of a lot better off if they were orphaned.

You are also right about the A* flying qualities; superlative in every sense ; doesn't even require a stall warning.

Jgreen

Wow, this is an amazing post. (John's post)

Really.....

I haven't seen one like it in all my years on BT.

1/2 is exactly spot on (seriously dude you nailed it).


And 1/2 is malarkey.

I guess this is the view of someone who came very close to buying one but decided it was just not our cup of tea.

deleted

John C,

There was a fair amount of opinion, in there. Mostly dealing with things you have placed as a priority, and what I believe many A* owners would say is BS.
For example, the comment on the tightly cowled implying this causes maintenance and heat issues. So far, I have yet to see any plane where they perform maintenance with the cowls on, so I never did understand this comment. Second, there are many other tightly cowled airplanes, Mooney, Cirrus SR22 and PA46 for example. This tends to be a more efficient design and yet you do not hear comments about them.

The reality is not the tight cowls, it is the tight spaces to get to the fuel tank cork seal under the pressure vessel, to the wing root....

Tim

John G.,

Your post was great, heck, I like all your posts!

Your post snuck in while I was composing my response to John C's post.

I apologize for any confusion, you were NOT the target of my derision.

As far as I'm concerned we are cool, I hope you (still) feel the same way.

Thanks Tim!

John,

On re-reading my post, I could (should) have been a bit more gentle.

The part about Jim C. staying alive long enough to find a successor tweaked my late night (reptile) brain. Jim is a great guy, he has been great to do business with, and I believe that if I happened to find myself in a Coeur d'Alene jail cell, and needed someone to bail me out, Jim would show up at 4:00AM with $1,000.00 in cash. (I believe John G. would do the same if I got myself into trouble in his neck of the woods.)

You clearly have done your research and I respect your (and anyone's) decision about whether or not an Aerostar would be a good fit for what one is trying to do. You are absolutely correct that an Aerostar requires a serious commitment from it's owners/pilots.

However,

My point, poorly expressed, was that some of the stuff you included were far from my experience in 10 years (and almost 2000 hrs) of ownership.

That's all I'm going to say about that.

What do the 5.5psi and Gross Weight Increase mods run?

I have a 602P/700. The airplane was born to be the fastest piston twin. So it has tight cowls, a short wing, small cabin etc. When you add turbocharging, pressurization, FIKI etc then access does become a problem. It can be a lot of work to replace a small part.

On the "Two-Tier" pricing there really are two tiers of these airplanes or more likey three.

The airplanes are hydraulic and most seep fluid past old orings and hoses. If you pay someone $95hr to replace all these old $0.30 parts and have no leaks and a "newer " airplane, it it going to cost a fortune. Likewise, if you replace all the sloppy bushings, bearings, old motor brushes etc, it will cost another fortune.

The top tier airplanes have generally been maintained or restored by AAC and AAC tends to want to make the airplanes the way they "should" have come from the factory in the first place. For instance, the rivets under the wing tend to loosen. These were originally Huck Bolts and can be replaced with the same but they will eventually loosten again. AAC will install access panels in the forward wing spar (a ton of labor) and then install Hyloks in place of the Huck Bolts. They will probably never loosen but the fix was 40x the expense of simply replacing the original fasteners with like kind. Broken wires are replaced instead of spliced which might be twenty times as expensive. BUT, everything is "right" and your airplane will not let you down.

The second tier airplanes are reasonably well maintained but have hydraulic seeps, a little play here and there. You add fluid to the hydraulics, add nitrogen to the struts etc. There are a number of these airplanes flying around where the owners think they have a top tier airplane. It might be $100K to get from this, second tier to the top tier

Then there are the barely airworthy airplane of which there are many. Probably most Aerostars are in this category. Brinneled control surface bearings, big sticky hydraulic fluid messes in the wings and gear wells and under the floors. Three generations of avionics and the wires from the CBs are original and spliced. Ground wires terminated wherever instead of at the designed ground points.

Before my Aerostar, I had a MU-2. I would have bought another MU-2 but the service center is in Tulsa and the simulator is in Orlando. AAC is on my way to Costco. The choice was easy.

I think the overall maitenance status for piston twins is poor and the reason is economics. A pressurized Aerostar has about $1.7MM worth of parts to maintain and the parts are mostly old and worn. The pilot buying one for $200K simply does not have the budget to maintain this collection of parts flying in close formation.

The market has clearly spoken. The preferred solution in this class of airplane is the single engine turboprop but the individual choice is going to be driven by economics. I don't fly my "traveling airplane" a ton of hours so I opted for a lower aquisition price and higher cost of operation. If I was flying 300+ hours a year then the SETP would make more sense.

http://www.aerostaraircraft.com/Install ... -20-16.pdf

5.5 = $33,000.00 (Keep in mind, the 5.5 upgrade significantly extends the life of a existing serviceable windshield)

6850# = $28,500

All I can say is I flew my 601P about 100hrs on engines that were 300hrs over TBO with almost no squawks (a sticking wastegate was about it). After engine overhaul, I flew it 80hrs before an air pump failed. Compared to my previous plane that was a lot less complex, the Aerostar was more reliable.

Mike, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. I am currently going through a complete refurbishment on a 600A model. So far it's been two years in the making. Yes, it turned into a much bigger project than I had originally anticipated. So much so I had to go out and get another 600 to fly while the other is being renovated.
What happened to me is one improvement, add on or fix lead to another until it pretty much got out of hand. Essentially the airplane has been stripped down to the frame. The complete structure has been examined, needed parts replaced, reinforced or upgraded. All bearings, fuel hoses, hydraulic hoses etc. have been replaced. Both engines have been replaced with Lycoming rebuilts. All brand new Garmin avionics, winglets, wing extensions, KFC 225, all new led everything, auxiliary fuel, six puck brakes, windows, interior, paint, pumps, actuators all rebuilt etc. etc. If I'm lucky, hopefully another six months and I should be in the air for an extensive shakedown.
One point I would like to make is that Aerostar Corporation has been instrumental in providing all parts and pieces necessary. No its not inexpensive to go down the road I have chosen, but, then again, I will have one heck of a flying machine when it is completed at less than half the price of comparable new.
Most Aerostars are not up to par from a maintenance stand point and that is why new owners who think they got a great deal begin to bleed to death very quickly. You have to go in with your eyes wide open and have a good group of people surrounding you with knowledge and direction when it comes to any legacy aircraft. The good thing about Aerostar's is that there is a wealth of knowledge among many Aerostar owners who are more than will to help anyone interested. All you have to do is ask.

Wondering how long the current top tier A* has been on Controller?