John,

I agree with everything you said except for snatching back the levers prior to touchdown. That is just a bad habit that can bite you. You are relying on safeties from preventing in air deployment. If one of those popped, you would be in trouble. And if you transition to the say a G-II, they do come out in the air if you pull the levers. I usually deployed the buckets on touchdown. With the CE-550, you just have to watch the attitude because the nose will sometimes raise up when the buckets come out. No big deal if you are expecting it. And yes, go to idle reverse at 50 kts., not stow. Stow them when you are at taxi speed. That rush forward from stowing them at 50 kts. is not necessary and uncomfortable to the pax.

Not talking about 50' in the air, or way before touchdown. I'll buy your "at touchdown" but sometimes I might be a second or two early.

I guess it comes from the C-123 and "Assault Landings" where we jammed on full reverse about 20 feet in the air. By the time we hit, the reverse was taking effect. First few times it's scary, but do it a few times per day for several months, and it becomes routine. Timing is everything!

Thrust reversers are really a great thing on contaminated runways. Also, keep in mind all performance calculations for landing distance do not allow the use of thrust reversers, unlike the King Air manual which lists with and without reverse thrust on the props.

As far as setting down and getting the reversers out before the nosewheel is down. I know the older Gulfstreams were able to deploy them just before the mains touched down, seemed to be pretty common with some of the guys I flew with. On the Citation, as was pointed out, it will lift the nose up and cause a tail strike if you are not careful. Of course, we are all careful aren't we? On the Citations, it is possible to have the reverser strike the ground when it goes to deploy. Being target type reversers, at some point during the actuation they are hanging down much more than they are when at the deployed position. Nose high actuation is a bad thing for this reason alone. You only need to have one squat switch (either one) to activate the reversers on the Citation.

I just teach pilots to get the nose wheel down before bringing them out. And yes, leave them out below 60 kts, just make sure they are at idle thrust, no harm, no foul.

I'll have to dig it out Larry: I seem to recall FL 250 because I need it in my KA when single pilot, but I don't have quick don masks like this bird.

Great stuff! Thanks for chiming in.

What I'm seeing done with the fella I'm flying with is deployed on touchdown, but not spooled up at all; so, idle I guess. They remain deployed until we taxi off the active; then stowed and using brakes to control speed. What he says is when spooled up, they shake the heck out of the tail. We're on long runways. I asked about slippery surfaces and he pointed out the engines are so close to the center, we don't get as much differential thrust as the KA; so, although helpful, not as effective. Anyway, just his take on things and I'm not seeing a big need if one watches speeds on approach. He's not saying his is the only approach, just that's what he's decided works best for what he's doing on the trips he flies mostly down here in Texas. Of course, the new VLJs don't have them.

I'm scheduled to fly again Thursday. Charter flight that I'll ride along on to build more time, get to know systems better on etc. I'll ask more about that.
I love prop reverse in the KA; so, I'll definitely play with that when I control a plane. Right now, just learning and really appreciate everyone's perspective.

[quote="Larry Olson"
The 121 rules are lower... i.e. 250 and above I believe 410 one must be on ox all the time regardless.... but I could be wrong.[/quote]

Thanks. That's probably what I have etched in my feeble brain after cramming for the ATP written.

Yeah, on long runways I would just deploy them. It does shake the tail when you come back hard on them and it probably increases wear on the thrust reversers, so full reverse is reserved for when you need it. You can also go anywhere in between idle reverse and full.

Not talking about 50' in the air, or way before touchdown. I'll buy your "at touchdown" but sometimes I might be a second or two early.

I guess it comes from the C-123 and "Assault Landings" where we jammed on full reverse about 20 feet in the air. By the time we hit, the reverse was taking effect. First few times it's scary, but do it a few times per day for several months, and it becomes routine. Timing is everything!

Yeah, if I was instructing, I would teach three on the ground. A pilot has lots of time to develope bad habits later when you are not signing them off.

I flew with quite a few different pilots. That is where you pick up these little tidbits, or pearls if you will.

Took the Citation IISP to FL390 today. Took about 30 minutes. The last couple thousand feet were at 500 FPM. Mid 30s we were still climbing at 750 FBM. Here's a pick of the Garmin there. Close to .6 mach. Instructor said FL380 and 390 were to get best longer range number at decent airspeed. He said the plane was much less efficient at FL430; airspeed loss for fuel savings wasn't worth it. If one needs a bit more range, to go to the above levels and pull throttles back a bit. Mid 30s was faster but used more fuel.

Notice fuel on board: 2,700 pounds.
Empty bird is 8,200
Crew was 400
So, at a weight of just over 11,000 pounds, 500 FPM the last couple thousand feet.
FF about 800 pph here (just over 100 gallons per hour).

So, if I purchase a plane with a gross weight increase, I'll have to step climb until I get down to this kind of weight to get to FL390. Most of the time, I'll be able to go straight there, but if heaver, will have to plan a step climb.

We sped up a bit as we burned off fuel and showed about 352 as we passed Fort Smith. We descended to FL340 and kept the throttles up which increased TAS about 15 knots but raised the FF to over 1,000 pph.

And the view, was spectacular!!

Wow, those fuel burn figures really get my attention!

You're getting about 3.5 miles/gallon (350kts/100 gallons), whereas a 421 gets about 5 (200/40) and a Bonanza gets around 10 (170/17).

Yes, JetA can be cheaper than Avgas, but still... Expensive fill ups.

Robert

One more thought, he made the flight planning very simple.
1,000 pounds the first hour which had 200 for taxi and climb in it.
800 per hour after that at this altitude.
1,200 for reserves if planning on going to an alternate and making an approach, and as little at 800 if VFR with a lot of choices and no known delays.

So, for a normal flight, 1,000 taxi and climb; add 1,200 in reserves leaves 1,800 in his plane (he fills to 4,000). That's 2.25 for cruise at 310 knots plus the first hour distance or just over 1,000 mile range. With good VFR and lower reserve, another .5 cruise or 150 NM.
In a plane with the gross weight increase, another hour of fuel, but a step climb and not as efficient until 11,000 pounds or less.
He laid all this out before we took off. when we landed, we were within 100 pounds of what he had estimated. We did a departure (Texoma)from Addison and Arrival (Jonez) back but got a great climb and PD descent. On a busy day with step ups and downs, certainly would be different. In the descent, we came down 2,000 to 2,500 to the arrival fix indicating over 240 until pretty low. Makes me better understand why I'm kept lower and vectored for faster traffic when arriving in my KA!

Nice view from up there, isn't it Dave

Dave, did your Citation pilot give a reason for not filling the tanks completely? I thought the II/IISP aircraft had a fuel capacity just shy of 5000#.