09 Jan 2026, 10:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 02 Jan 2026, 11:28 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 21010 Post Likes: +26482 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: And who are you going to get to do that HSI at 2500 hours? TBO Extension thinks they can do it, so you need to figure out where they get it done: https://atlanticjetpartners.com/tbo-ext ... 35-series/If there is a past TBO HSI option, then the strategy can be implemented. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 02 Jan 2026, 11:40 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8838 Post Likes: +11442 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: And who are you going to get to do that HSI at 2500 hours? TBO Extension thinks they can do it, so you need to figure out where they get it done: https://atlanticjetpartners.com/tbo-ext ... 35-series/If there is a past TBO HSI option, then the strategy can be implemented. Mike C. • Cost and schedule advantages on PW530/535: $1–$1.5M per engine pair (includes HSI), 4–6 weeks turnaround, 2,500-hour extension
I suspect they worked with Pratt to get their STC approved, it makes sense for Pratt as they are SO far behind on Hot Sections and overhauls.
$1.5M (and we all know it can be a lot more) Did you do the math?
You'd be just as well off on the program.
_________________ I have the right to remain silent, I just seem to lack the ability.
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 02 Jan 2026, 11:53 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 21010 Post Likes: +26482 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I suspect they worked with Pratt to get their STC approved That makes no sense at all. Why would Pratt enable a company to take their revenue? Pratt being behind is just artificial scarcity, something a monopoly can do at will to disempower their customers. TBO Extension STC never made any sense, costs way too much for what it is. You have to pay for their STC development costs, their profits, and their monitoring gizmos, which is why it cost way more than just an HSI. An owner operator doing an HSI without the STC does make sense. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 02 Jan 2026, 11:55 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8838 Post Likes: +11442 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: I suspect they worked with Pratt to get their STC approved That makes no sense at all. Why would Pratt enable a company to take their revenue? Pratt being behind is just artificial scarcity, something a monopoly can do at will to disempower their customers. TBO Extension STC never made any sense, costs way too much for what it is. You have to pay for their STC development costs, their profits, and their monitoring gizmos, which is why it cost way more than just an HSI. An owner operator doing an HSI without the STC does make sense. Mike C.
My assumption is that they are having Pratt or Standard Aero do the HSI.
As far as I know, no other shops can do events on the 500 series Pratts.
_________________ I have the right to remain silent, I just seem to lack the ability.
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 02 Jan 2026, 12:25 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13656 Post Likes: +7818 Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC
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Username Protected wrote: Anyone know if you can add CPDLC to a 2008 Proline 21 system? I did a Little research and it seems you need a CMU-4000 but not said if that can be just added to a system of that age?
Seems like I get a lot of re routes when I fly these days and not loving the idea of adding big changes to the FMS manually. Having CPDLC would really simplify that panel in the Encore +
Mike You’ll get less reroutes when you go faster.
_________________ Views are my own and don’t represent employers or clients My 58TC https://tinyurl.com/mry9f8f6
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 05 Jan 2026, 21:19 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1729 Post Likes: +1784 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: Mike C.,
Another thing you might start thinking about, since you are intent on being the poster boy of past TBO operations, if the Biffle Citation II had past TBO engines, what kind of criticism would he be facing posthumously right now?
Sometimes it’s better to let people make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Chip, I'm normally on your side but this is a low blow. Engines fail for lots of reasons. A member here on BT had a -1A fail on takeoff a few months ago. The engine had a cycle-limited disk that failed before it hit its cycle limit so he was doing everything right. He handled the engine failure correctly, came around, and landed the plane safely. All the evidence we have in the Biffle crash points to the pilot borking the engine failure, not the engine failure itself. Besides, if the HSI was done properly, it should have identified and replaced any out of tolerance parts. What would an OH do that the HSI would not?
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 07 Jan 2026, 01:26 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8838 Post Likes: +11442 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Mike C.,
Another thing you might start thinking about, since you are intent on being the poster boy of past TBO operations, if the Biffle Citation II had past TBO engines, what kind of criticism would he be facing posthumously right now?
Sometimes it’s better to let people make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Chip, I'm normally on your side but this is a low blow. Engines fail for lots of reasons. A member here on BT had a -1A fail on takeoff a few months ago. The engine had a cycle-limited disk that failed before it hit its cycle limit so he was doing everything right. He handled the engine failure correctly, came around, and landed the plane safely. All the evidence we have in the Biffle crash points to the pilot borking the engine failure, not the engine failure itself. Besides, if the HSI was done properly, it should have identified and replaced any out of tolerance parts. What would an OH do that the HSI would not?
Not a low blow at all. Just pointing out perspective. The fact is if Biffle had engines past TBO, many would be flaming him.
I do this for a living and I have professional liability insurance. I have to be more careful about what I recommend. I am now comfortable recommending hot sections only for PT6’s because it has become so common that it is defensible, even in court. Plus, on the small case PT6’s we have the precedence set by the M.O.R.E. Program.
On the JT15’s it is slowly becoming more popular, and we do have TBO extension programs that give some credence, although not the history we have with the PT6’s.
I would be reluctant to recommend someone take the next step and attempt to operate past TBO on a 500 series Pratt.
I don’t disagree with anything that you or Mike are saying about operating past TBO and overhauls not being critical. I’m just pointing out that a judge and jury might not see it the same way.
Just because we know and understand these engines, that doesn’t mean the general public does and you have to acknowledge the fact that if the question were asked “Mr. Smith, why did you not have the engines overhauled as the manufacturer recommended?”
The answer probably shouldn’t start with “well you see these engines can…”
Because the next question will be about your qualifications.
_________________ I have the right to remain silent, I just seem to lack the ability.
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Post subject: Re: Citation Encore VS CJ4 Posted: 07 Jan 2026, 11:11 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1729 Post Likes: +1784 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: I don’t disagree with anything that you or Mike are saying about operating past TBO and overhauls not being critical. I’m just pointing out that a judge and jury might not see it the same way.
Just because we know and understand these engines, that doesn’t mean the general public does and you have to acknowledge the fact that if the question were asked “Mr. Smith, why did you not have the engines overhauled as the manufacturer recommended?”
The answer probably shouldn’t start with “well you see these engines can…” No, the answer would start with, "Federal Aviation Regulation X (can't be bothered to look it up) states that overhauls are not required for Part 91 (personal) flying. We dutifully follow all Federal Aviation Regulations that apply to our flights. Furthermore, there is no evidence that an overhaul would have decreased the chances of the engine failure beyond what was done during the Hot Section Inspection. During that Inspection, all parts of the engine are Inspected and if any are out of tolerance they are repaired or replaced. The Inspection was performed on X date by X shop and all inspection steps and remediations were completed according to the manufacturer's guidelines." I would then compare it to a car (which a jury could easily understand). Do you replace all of the guts of your car engine every so many miles whether it needs it or not? Of course not, throwing away perfectly good parts is stupid. Instead you inspect the engine at the manufacturer's recommended intervals and if anything is found to be out of spec you repair or replace it. An engine is an engine.
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