Sorry if this has already been mentioned but when did the laser manufactured parts start? And am I reading correctly the primer issue was strictly with QB kits? Was there a date starting with those? I’m considering a used RV8 at some point and it would seem these problems are going to really skewer the pricing on builds before and after these dates.

I am surprised with all the financially savvy folks on BT, there is not more reading between the lines on the Van's post. Very sadly, I think they are in bigger trouble than just the laser cut holes. I have a lot of questions myself:
- How long were they skating by on PPP loans (forgiven) to cover their payroll? This might be the first year in several where they have actually had to cover payroll which could be a real financial hit.
- What's the real purpose of this stand down? Not sure it is just deciding what to do with the laser cut holes. It could just as easily be to "re-arrange" their funds, assets, and debt in advance of bankruptcy before all creditors are treated more equally.
- Are the deposits for kits and Lycoming engine deposits being kept in separate escrow-style accounts or are they using this money to fund their current operations? (I'd read the T&C's of my deposit very carefully before allowing Van's to continue to hold one..)
- What is the real demand for RV kits? After nearly 50 years, with so many already-built RV's out and flying, have the secondary sales of built-RV's that are "fixer up"/ "upgradable" projects themselves may have started to really cut too much into the demand for kits to continue to support their business model with just enthusiastic builders? There isn't a large market of prospective owners, and you can see it getting saturated. I know that they are sold out for 2 years in advance, but is the scale of what they are selling enough to support a business of their size?

This whole thing is sad for such an important part of the GA and experimental community. Hopefully they emerge from this ok, but there is certainly more to this story than one heartfelt explanation for a 2 month stand down.

From their announcement……
in some of the parts we've had manufactured via a laser-cutting process. That process was used to manufacture certain parts from February 2022 to June 2023. I'll include a brief summary here, and the complete details are at the link.

As you have alluded to, Becca, they have multiple, very serious issues to contend with. It’s not looking good IMO and so sad for Richard Vangrunsven. As someone on the RV forum said, after 50 years of success, not something he should be dealing with at this stage in his life.

Exactly. I learned this years ago (non-aviation sheet metal fabrication) and only insisted on mechanical shearing or water jet cutting. There are other issues with laser that were unacceptable as well (very slight warpage for one). This only really affected aluminum, I did not see any issues with thin gauge CRS).

Dan

I'm not sure how they can recover from this. The money to address the defective parts is substantial, but there is also the issue of parts already built and assembled requiring disassembly, removal, replacement... A daunting prospect for the builder caught in that situation.

What's worse is the ongoing doubt that will forever hang over these planes and parts. Granted I'm an outsider, not owning an RV nor intending to, but were I dealing with this from a builder's perspective I would not feel safe unless every one of these parts was replaced. If I was half way through the build and facing disassembly and repair I might just throw in the towel, send what I had to recycling, and join the class action that is at this point inevitable in order to recover at least some of my loss.

For those intrepid souls who would forge ahead, they must consider the liability that they would be taking on by completing the plane. Their name is on the certificate as the manufacturer. If they sell it and something happens, it would come directly back to them and the accusation would be that it was a known defect and they built and sold the airplane anyway. That would ruin most people if lives were lost, so unless they intend to never fly with a passenger, and destroy the plane when they are finished with it, fully repairing it with known good parts is the only other option.

All of this will be hanging over the head of Vans as builders struggle with their situation, and with future sales in the wake of this mess. I feel for them, but if I were to guess I would be guessing that this is the end of Vans in its current form.

Laser cutting has some science to it. There are a couple of laser types available for sheet work, and then you can add a variety of gasses to the cut to reduce this sort of problem.

I think Vans will be ok. They're the #1 kit manufacturer and it's not even close. The designs are solid, efficient, safe and super fun. It will be painful for some builders, but Vans will eventually make it right and recover, in my humble opinion.

My understanding is that demand boomed during covid (as we all saw in the used plane pricing), they outsourced in order to be able to meet demand and that has backfired.

Hindsight being 20/20 they should have just upped prices and dealt with longer lead times while investing in their own infrastructure.

I'm with Adam though, they will find a way forward even if it's selling off part of the company to raise the cash to address the issues. They dominate the kit market, it would be a gigantic loss to aviation as a whole for them to go under.

Fair amount in red on their list. If the 1800 kits count is correct, they could spend a year making parts with little cash flow.

Feels like they tried to satisfy everyone at once and got sideways with headcount and outsourcing.

What part of the company could they sell off? Maybe the RV-12 SLSA manufacturing? Maybe the new RV-15 design as a spin-off company Vans Off-Road or something?

I fear that the solution will be bankruptcy and dissolving the company, reorganizing as "New Vans Aircraft" or something, or selling the company to China.

arguably that worked out ok for skystar, at least as far as maintaining aircraft production and parts support

That’s what I’m thinking.

Van is a gentleman's gentleman. A stoic Dutchman that reminds me of my father, another stoic Dutchman, every time I see and speak with him. Like my dad, he is a man of few but powerful words, a trait that sadly I did not inherit. At my father's funeral I said there is no more dependable currency than a handshake from my dad. I believe that about Van as well. I truly believe that Van will do whatever he possibly can to make this right and see the company through it if there is any way possible. I would not bet against him, because Dutchmen are not only honest, stoic, and trustworthy, they are smart, and stubborn.

As a 65 year old, 40 year independent business owner who has enjoyed some small measure of success, this is has been a huge wakeup call for me!

Nobody in aviation has been more consistently successful in aviation that Van's and to see this happen at this point in his business's lifespan is heartbreaking.

I am at that point in my career where I am leaving more responsibility to others, and spending more time flying airplanes.

My thinking has been that my people are doing a good job, they have a good family environment to work in, and I am reaping some reward.

The list of small mistakes that might or might not be my own, and could have dire consequences is long, and the career time remaining to recover is short.

This event has me rethinking my thinking...

Wow, a guy comes to the public forum to let everyone know about what's happening inside the company and to be transparent and you all start putting together the coffin. Now it makes sense why businesses would rather not announce anything until you call the main number and find it disconnected!

I'm not sure what's in store for Vans in the next ten years, my hope is that they find the footing and continue to produce. I'm hopeful that I can finish my RV-12is one day and teach my kids to fly in it. I'm not worried about my liability for reselling my plane as I don't plan on doing so. I'm building this so that my kids have a plane and the knowledge and skill set to do so. I think a lot of the builders are in similar situations and no one wants to see Vans fail.

So, I say lets give them two weeks (or even more), see what Dick has to say and then go from there.