BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 16:45

Username Protected wrote:

Yep, our client was quoted $180k for SP/ Owner flown!!!

How many hours did he have? How old ? What limits? Did he live in Utah?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 17:23

Even at those rates, going to be a while paying off the recent P300 that went down with the high net worth owner pilot onboard. If I had a gazillion dollars to enter the airplane insurance market... I would seek professional psychiatric help and put my money somewhere else ;-)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 17:43

Username Protected wrote:

Even at those rates, going to be a while paying off the recent P300 that went down with the high net worth owner pilot onboard. If I had a gazillion dollars to enter the airplane insurance market... I would seek professional psychiatric help and put my money somewhere else ;-)

If there are 400 P300s at that rate that is $60,000,000 per year in premiums. Not sure how many Phenom crashes there are on average each year but I am guessing something less than 1.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 20:35

Username Protected wrote:

Neither. Fractionals would be better. That's less than 100 hours a year. For the cost of capital/opportunity cost, time spent to be a competent and current pilot, potential AOG events, etc. it's not worth the effort, unless you enjoy the effort.

Mike C has laid out the case for how great and cheap it is to run legacy model jets. My opinion and I will let Mike opine for himself; he enjoys the job (even if it's frustrating at times) of managing a legacy aircraft.

All of Mike's arguments are pandering to a crowd of passionate pilots, who are willing to trade what is really valuable time, for the enjoyment of having 2nd job maintaining their aircraft.

Well, this is BeechTalk. By definition we are GA pilots and owning and flying your own plane (effectively) never makes economic sense when you factor in all of the time and money you spend maintaining yourself and your plane.

I LOVE spending time at the airport crawling around my plane doing this and that. I help my mechanic when he is working on my plane - I do it because I love it and it saves me money. He'll tell me to do things like pull up floor panels or something while he spends an hour on someone else's plane and then comes back to mine when I'm done. I also do things like reset the passenger oxygen masks after we drop them every year. That results in me having to catch up my day job at night but so far it's worth it to me.

I spend a ton of time reading BT and CJP, learning how to maintain my plane and improve my flying. It is a hobby and in that respect it is a time and money hole (the literal definition of a hobby) but I gain a lot of personal satisfaction from it.

All that being said, for a non-pilot, you are absolutely correct. Not everyone is capable of being a pilot and not everyone wants to put in the kind of time we do. They may want to work more or have other hobbies that they would rather spend their time on. For those people, a fractional is ideal.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 20:42

Username Protected wrote:

Piaggio will eventually be bought, support will improve and they will put a garmin panel in it with autoland. It will fill the cj2 void

Flame away.

Half fuel burn, bigger cabin and better handling.
Support is fixable. New owner will do that to sell more planes. Cost fits nicely between m2 and cj3 etc.

I looked fairly hard at P-180s (being local to IJS is a plus) but I was too nervous about the parts situation to pull the trigger. My wife LOVED the cabin. I could definitely see one in my future if the company is well capitalized and fuel prices keep going up.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 23 Mar 2023, 22:52

Username Protected wrote:

All of Mike's arguments are pandering to a crowd of passionate pilots, who are willing to trade what is really valuable time, for the enjoyment of having 2nd job maintaining their aircraft.

Well, this is BeechTalk. By definition we are GA pilots and owning and flying your own plane (effectively) never makes economic sense when you factor in all of the time and money you spend maintaining yourself and your plane.

I LOVE spending time at the airport crawling around my plane doing this and that. I help my mechanic when he is working on my plane - I do it because I love it and it saves me money. He'll tell me to do things like pull up floor panels or something while he spends an hour on someone else's plane and then comes back to mine when I'm done. I also do things like reset the passenger oxygen masks after we drop them every year. That results in me having to catch up my day job at night but so far it's worth it to me.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 01:06

Username Protected wrote:

I LOVE spending time at the airport crawling around my plane doing this and that. I help my mechanic when he is working on my plane - I do it because I love it and it saves me money. He'll tell me to do things like pull up floor panels or something while he spends an hour on someone else's plane and then comes back to mine when I'm done. I also do things like reset the passenger oxygen masks after we drop them every year. That results in me having to catch up my day job at night but so far it's worth it to me.

Kind of reminds me of something I heard. Customer to the mechanic: How much do you charge... Mech: $150/hour. How much if I help? Mech: $200/hr ;-)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 10:58

Username Protected wrote:

Kind of reminds me of something I heard. Customer to the mechanic: How much do you charge... Mech: $150/hour. How much if I help? Mech: $200/hr ;-)

LOL. Yeah, in the beginning, my "help" consisted of holding a flashlight, fetching tools, asking a million questions (which I'm sure added to my bill as it slowed him down), etc. Over time I graduated to turning tools myself and he always inspects my work before signing off. I also have pretty decent mechanical aptitude from fixing cars and roadracing motorcycles when I was younger. On that last point, my mechanic was shocked when I pulled out my own safety wire pliers and knew how to use them!

My mechanic is buried in work so he really appreciates it when I do the non-skilled tasks and in return I get to watch him work and learn more about my plane.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 11:08

Username Protected wrote:

I’d say then that until someone builds and sells a 410 knot 6 passenger single pilot jet for $8 million (that splits it perfect between a 400 kt, 5 pax M2 and 420 kt, 7 pax CJ3), then there will only be a choice of M2/Phenom 100 or a CJ3+/Phenom 300. I think if there was a business case for an in between jet, both Textron and Embraer would be building it.

You'll get it in the HondaJet 2600. It will put Textrons complete lineup on the backside. No more being beholden to Williams, no more fuel stops between NYC and LA.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 11:20

I did not realize the 2600 was selling for $8M. Great deal! When do they start delivering?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 11:21

Username Protected wrote:

I’d say then that until someone builds and sells a 410 knot 6 passenger single pilot jet for $8 million (that splits it perfect between a 400 kt, 5 pax M2 and 420 kt, 7 pax CJ3), then there will only be a choice of M2/Phenom 100 or a CJ3+/Phenom 300. I think if there was a business case for an in between jet, both Textron and Embraer would be building it.

You'll get it in the HondaJet 2600. It will put Textrons complete lineup on the backside. No more being beholden to Williams, no more fuel stops between NYC and LA.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 11:23

Username Protected wrote:

You'll get it in the HondaJet 2600. It will put Textrons complete lineup on the backside. No more being beholden to Williams, no more fuel stops between NYC and LA.

I was hopeful Honda would make a line of engines to compete with Williams and there would be a healthy mod program to update older airplanes with these engines. The Hondas would be fuel efficient, quiet and low cost.

Alas, no such line up has emerged.

Also, have you priced the Honda engine program? My understanding is that it is every bit the cost if not more than Williams. Sigh.

The Hondajet 2600 will require a new higher power engine. Maybe that will become an option for retrofit? It would be about the thrust class my V would take, 3000 to 3500 lbf.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 11:29

Username Protected wrote:

I did not realize the 2600 was selling for $8M. Great deal! When do they start delivering?

Long time from now when the price won't be $8M any more.

I think it is a vaporware concept to see what the market reaction is. It isn't clear they have an actual design program started on it.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 12:06

Unless they figure out a way to keep them on the rwy insurance mkt could be a problem!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 24 Mar 2023, 12:37

Username Protected wrote:

I did not realize the 2600 was selling for $8M. Great deal! When do they start delivering?

Long time from now when the price won't be $8M any more.

I think it is a vaporware concept to see what the market reaction is. It isn't clear they have an actual design program started on it.

Mike C.

Textron! We need an M3!! (Citation CJ2+)