I will never buy a jet that requires 2 pilots.

They are available. It's called "another airport".

Now if we could only get KNUQ opened up for reasonable general use. The bay area really needs something like that.

Is the drive to KHWD too much? The San Mateo or Dumbarton too much trouble?

Mike C.

Yes... I can be a ways down the road in the extra half hour... plus the honest truth is I tend to have more flights around California so the MU2 speed plus range is perfectly fine the vast majority of the time, and a jet might actually be slower for me due to altitudes and routing issues.

But it’s fun to think about long distance travel at high speed.

I've been studying that some and I've come to the conclusion that generally jets get better routings than turboprops.

On SID/STAR, they get higher altitudes. Some SID/STAR are turbojet only. Jets fit better into flows at major airports.

So I don't expect a jet would be worse than a turboprop in general and my study of routes they get between places suggest this is so. There's no quantitative output from that, just a feeling by looking a several hundred of them.

Obviously a jet is slower if you have to drive an extra 30 minutes to use it on most routes.

Mike C.

I've been researching the jet v. turboprop routings for years (easy to do on FA) and it's always the same route, same arrival and departure altitudes etc. Anyone can check it out.

I think the most impactful thing on the airplane market in the last 20 years is ATC. I could argue that ATC is what killed most of the mini-jet programs. The mini-jet designers at the time hadn't factored in lousy routings, step climbs and early descents. The skies got crowded and ATC responded by keeping the traffic to the private airports lower than the commercial traffic.

In other words.... It has nothing to do with the speed of your airplane. It has everything to do with "which airport are you using". If you're not using the "big, busy airport" they're going to keep you out of the way of the "big, busy airport" traffic.

Yeah, but I can go VFR effectively and efficiently in several cases which saves lots of SID/STAR and vectoring altogether. And I kind of get the same feeling as Jason, to and from major airports is different than to and from nearby smaller airports, and I think the turboprop does the lower altitude thing more effectively and stays out of some of the flow vectoring in some ways.

But... as you said, nothing quantified, just kind of feeling I get.

I don’t think It’s ATC so much as it is the air carriers. The air carriers have ultimate control unfortunately.

Obviously not true for the SID/STAR labeled "turbojet only", and even the ones allowed for turboprops, the jets get higher crossing altitudes.

Mike C.

1000' higher isn't making a difference when it comes to the fuel consumption in jet cruising below 30k'. Going into any major metropolitan area ATC will have Jets and Turbo props below 8k' with 30-40 minutes of the flight remaining. Many times I'm below 3k' with a Hawker right next to me (yesterday)

Don’t be afraid to dream big!

It's not 1000 ft higher.

It is 2000 ft higher AND being closer to the airport.

For example, CLAMP7 into KSRQ:

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1902/00640CLAMP.PDF

20 nm closer and 2000 ft higher is a meaningfully better profile for the jet than the turboprop.


Your assertion doesn't fit the evidence.

Citation V from the north landing KPDK (first light jet I checked on the arrivals list, so not hand picked):

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N46 ... K/tracklog

Spent 10 minutes below 8K.

20 minutes prior to landing, was at FL300.

Next light jet Legacy 500:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N44 ... K/tracklog

12 minutes below 8K.

Jets come in higher, get higher altitudes, and go faster on the arrivals so they don't spend as much time down low as you think.

Mike C.

Don’t be afraid to dream big!

Here's a Challenger from PDK to TEB this morning. Started descending with half his flight left. Crossed below 30K' with 30 minutes of flight left. Held at 3000' for the last 15 minutes so he doesn't interfere with JFK. This is the exact same arrival and altitudes I fly every time into TEB.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N61 ... /KPDK/KTEB

You're cherry picking bad "evidence". SRQ is not on topic.

Because the PC12 is so slow. I know a few guys that went from PC12 to TBM.

Only 17 minutes under 8K, not the 30-40 minutes you claimed.

Mike C.