19 Nov 2025, 11:06 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 14:35 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2660 Post Likes: +2234 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: Actually this -
1) buy smallest planesense share now. 2) See what local expertise exists in maintaining a pressurized piston twin. 3) Start looking for any popular pressurized piston twin (340/414/421/58P/Aerostar) that your mechanic likes and buy the first great one you find. 4) while doing #3, realize planesense fits your mission and upgrade to 1/4 share The 1/16 share is a $350,000 buy-in, $6,000/month management fee, and $1,167/hr when you fly. That gets you 50 hrs. And there's no guarantee what you can sell your share for when you want out.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 14:42 |
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Joined: 06/08/12 Posts: 12581 Post Likes: +5190 Company: Mayo Clinic Location: Rochester, MN
Aircraft: Planeless in RST
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Username Protected wrote: Point being if he’s considering buying an old 8-place airplane for $500K that might not be in the best of condition and capability, he might not want to put the four most important people in it.
I knew what you meant. We are good. His parameters don’t add up. In manufacturing we say : quality, speed, price. Pick any two. That budget, that distance, that runway, that pax load..... Pipe dream.
_________________ BFR 8/18; IPC 8/18
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 16:44 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 20748 Post Likes: +26221 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: but the first time this guy spends $25k on an ACM he’ll be hating ownership. He will hate it less if the ACM is in a Citation he finds very useful than an ACM in a King Air he finds slow and noisy. Any construction company who has projects all 1/4 of the USA has the revenue to support a Citation. Why not start with an airplane that really DOES the job? Compared to buying a King Air wishing you had a jet, buying a jet and finding out it doesn't work tells you no airplane will and you should just get out and charter. For rental pilots, I'd rather they fly a jet than a turboprop. There's just so much less to go wrong, really. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 16:45 |
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Joined: 01/29/08 Posts: 26338 Post Likes: +13085 Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: The 1/16 share is a $350,000 buy-in, $6,000/month management fee, and $1,167/hr when you fly. That gets you 50 hrs. And there's no guarantee what you can sell your share for when you want out. Damn..... owning one is much cheaper. If you're not a pilot you're gonna pay a fortune and have no control..... that's all there is to it. If I wasn't a pilot I'd probably fly commercial.
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 17:46 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2660 Post Likes: +2234 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: The 1/16 share is a $350,000 buy-in, $6,000/month management fee, and $1,167/hr when you fly. That gets you 50 hrs. And there's no guarantee what you can sell your share for when you want out. Damn..... owning one is much cheaper. If you're not a pilot you're gonna pay a fortune and have no control..... that's all there is to it. If I wasn't a pilot I'd probably fly commercial. Yep. And it only gets worse for a more normal utilization...
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 19:28 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 8544 Post Likes: +11085 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: but the first time this guy spends $25k on an ACM he’ll be hating ownership. He will hate it less if the ACM is in a Citation he finds very useful than an ACM in a King Air he finds slow and noisy. Any construction company who has projects all 1/4 of the USA has the revenue to support a Citation. Why not start with an airplane that really DOES the job? Compared to buying a King Air wishing you had a jet, buying a jet and finding out it doesn't work tells you no airplane will and you should just get out and charter. For rental pilots, I'd rather they fly a jet than a turboprop. There's just so much less to go wrong, really. Mike C.
Based on the budget, it sounds like revenue is an issue. Again, I agree that there’s a lot of value in a legacy jet, but remember what it’s like to not know... the average owner gets hit with $50k... $100k... $150k... he isn’t expecting and he’s done.
I’ve operated King Airs of all varieties as well as 550 and 560 Citations... love them all. But, the legacy Citations can bite you in the pocket book, the ACM is just one example. There’s very few items on a King Air or for that matter an MU2 that cost $25k a pop.
The logic behind a King Air is that if they want out they can liquidate it, if they stay in... they can upgrade to a jet. Buying a legacy key because they are cheap is shortsighted. With a better defined mission they might be able to get by in a CJ series... which can be owned for what it cost to operate a legacy Citation.
_________________ Recent acquisitions - 2004 King Air B200 - 2013 Citation Mustang - 2022 M2Gen2!
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 19:33 |
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Joined: 11/09/13 Posts: 1910 Post Likes: +927 Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
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Quote: . How about giving numerical examples to back up your point.
Mike C. I have some here for my Commander. It would be interesting to compare them to your MU2 and the citations you are lusting over. The jets suffer when hot and high, particularly the older ones. Jets are normally aspirated for lack of a better description. Our TPs are derated. First is a MGW std day sea level single engine climb
1000 fpm climb 9.0% climb gradient 547 ft per NM Next is MGW departure at 6000ft and a temp of 30c 650 fpm climb 5.0% climb gradient 304 ft per NM
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 19:53 |
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Joined: 11/09/13 Posts: 1910 Post Likes: +927 Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
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Quote: . The 980 Commander Vxse is 97 (which is unusually low due to excessive wing area). I know mine is bigger but I would not call it excessive!
Let put away the yard sticks before somebody gets hurt.
Mike there is nothing wrong with small!
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 20:00 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3038 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Wow - $100k/month to “manage” a pc12 then $20/minute to fly. Sheesh Owners are supporting a 24/7/365 available anytime operation. Pilots, A&Ps, dispatch, scheduling, billing, accounting, HR, management. It adds up with lots of cost to have the plane at the ready compared to a single plane owner operation.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 20:30 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12835 Post Likes: +5276 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: Wow - $100k/month to “manage” a pc12 then $20/minute to fly. Sheesh Owners are supporting a 24/7/365 available anytime operation. Pilots, A&Ps, dispatch, scheduling, billing, accounting, HR, management. It adds up with lots of cost to have the plane at the ready compared to a single plane owner operation.
Certainly does add up.
$2600/hr for 50 hours or $130k/yr
I suppose that’s a good value in certain situations
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 20:40 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3038 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: $2600/hr for 50 hours or $130k/yr
I suppose that’s a good value in certain situations
I would think that hourly cost is around charter rates. I think charter can be less expensive, especially considering no capital costs, as long as you can plan ahead and schedule the plane.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Airplane Purchase Research: Pressurized Twin Options Posted: 04 Feb 2018, 21:23 |
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Joined: 01/25/15 Posts: 201 Post Likes: +192
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Username Protected wrote: $2600/hr for 50 hours or $130k/yr
I suppose that’s a good value in certain situations
I would think that hourly cost is around charter rates. I think charter can be less expensive, especially considering no capital costs, as long as you can plan ahead and schedule the plane.
Chartering a PC12 is a lot cheaper than that...
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