It has a lot to do with taking a $50K hit. It was not a comment on your financial abilities, I have no knowledge there and even if I did, I would not comment. It's a comment on realities of airplane ownership. FAA could ground all of them, and I don't carefully your plans were made, it will be worthless. Or more likely, oil shoots up to $150 due to geopolitical instability and your $500K twin is now worth $250K if you can even find a buyer. Relax.

Tim,

At 65 hours/yr I'd look for a few other people who need an airplane and buy a turbine (I know I sound like a broken record). Partnerships aren't very liquid so I'd look for the opportunity to sell block time to the partners rather than equity shares. You have the advantage of knowing how to manage a turbine fleet (new owners (like me!) typically learn some very expensive lessons early on and with your experience you'll avoid these) and could provide a lot of value to your partners (management, training, pilot services, etc..). Assuming you don't mind trading your work for the benefit of owning a plane, I would think you could fly the turbine at a pretty good discount when compared to outright ownership.

I know its a little out-of-the-box but thought I'd throw it out there for consideration - J

Mike- Thanks for input. I was thinking of the Alcohol windshield but add Electric later as an attraction at re sale. I particularly don't need Fiki but believe most consider the 421 an all weather airplane so the non FIKI planes are not considered. ( of course price adjustment for the heated windshield)

To say a 421 is non-FIKI is not to say it's not an all-weather airplane. This has more to do with the ever-changing FAA rulebook than capability. There are FIKI MU2's with alcohol windshields. For whatever reason, the FAA (or Cessna) decided to require a heated windshield. My non-FIKI 421 has full boots, heated props, heated stall/pitot, etc. Full deice 421s are all weather airplanes.

Tim take a deep breath here bro. Toms not saying anything about what your bank account can afford. What he's saying is if you can't stomach or don't want to risk that $50K then a pressurized twin cessna is not a good fit. Thats all, no offense towards your financial stability.

My apologies for using the word "afford." You indicated losing $50AMU is not an option. IMO, it has to be an option if moving up to a $500 AMU pressurized twin. I have contemplated this move for some time as well and that is why I commented. Losing $50AMU is not an option for me either, even though I can afford it.

Good luck on this. I will be interested to see how it works out.

Hey Tom, just wait for him to jump on you for not offering any "insight" on his thread.

Tom - No worries...

Again - I pose the question;; I'm looking at 200k -350k priced 421C and the view points of members.. I would never buy a 500k 421- That would be at the top of the market and compete with the TP which is a loosing battle.


Matt-- Insight on the planes and selection is welcomed.

I think there's a big difference between "asking price" and "price sold for" with a lot of those $300-350k 421's. I know two of my friends just snagged Cessna 500 series jets for half of asking. No seller wants to leave any money on the table (especially if there's similar aircraft listed at sky high prices), but if a cash buyer emerges, that 16 month sitting $350k 421 might seem compelling and attractive to sell at $270k.

It might take you a while, but you can definitely find a good straight legged 421C for under $350.

Even if it's listed at $350, a pre buy is going to turn up $50k worth of stuff and you can use that to negotiation the price down.

Engines are going to be the highest ticket priced item - figure $60-70 a side to replace (reman from Continental is $54k + engine r&r and general cleanup in the engine bay while you're in there).

Windshields are expensive, but other than legality there's no reason to fix if the heating element is broken. Figure $25k or so to replace the heated windshield. I suspect there are many 421s flying without operative heated windshields.

Do look at the overall condition and age of all of the windows. Windows are consumables and will have to be replaced at some point. There is a prism test that your prebuy shop should be aware of.

Fill the airplane with fuel and let it sit overnight. Any blue stains? If serious, budget some $ for a mechanic with small hands to do some revealing.

Other than that, look for basic structural integrity. Spars, corrosion, boots, etc., are all easy to inspect but potentially very costly. For some reason I've had an issue with boots and have replaced several due to tearing. Not cheap.

Now you're looking at personal opinion items: paint, interior, and avionics. Personally, these are important to me, to a point. I don't need G1000s, but I want at least a nice Garmin stack and prefer at least an Aspen (which I don't have at the moment). To me, the paint job is important as it's the first thing someone sees in your airplane. Interior in at least decent shape is also important to me. Note that all of these are my opinions when buying my airplane - everyone has their own view on these items as to what's important.

Robert

Garrett- Your right.. I'm observing the 421 market not moving and a cash buyer has leverage as always.. This has been in my evaluation and is the art of buying right and having value...

If I were in your shoes, I'd be on the exact same path. On 421's, at this point with the movement I've been monitoring over the past 6 months, that asking price is just a suggestion. I'd wager the out the door sales cost would be half.

Same with the older 500/550 citations. Those planes have been sitting long enough to make dents beneath the tires in the concrete. There's a good possibility the pre-buy will reveal a lot of underuse but again, I think there's a better chance that's coming out of the seller's wallet than the buyers right now.

If a buyer can stomach the operating costs, the 421 is a steal (as far as acquisition goes).

There is far more downside risk in a more expensive airplane.

There is more loss of investment return in money tied up in a more expensive airplane, or interest on a loan.

There is more money spent on insurance on a more expensive airplane.

If you buy a 1976 straight leg for $200K and it sells 3 years later for $150K, I predict you are better off total dollars in and out than a $350K later model, even if it sells for $350K, which is doubtful.

To fly it 65 hours/year, budget about $50K, roughly $17K fuel, $17K maintenance, $17K hangar, insurance, misc. So you are "losing" that $50K every year regardless. In 4 years, you will have spent as much flying it as it is worth.

As to FIKI, there is a growing awareness of the cost of the glass windshields and how often they break and need to be replaced. A fully deiced 421C with an alcohol windshield may not be as punished in the market as you think. Also, you will get it cheaper because of that, so I think there is no real net money here.

From a practical standpoint, the alcohol windshield is enough, IMO. I fly a turboprop (which finds ice year round) without a glass windshield, though it is technically FIKI.

I'm a fan of 1976-1979 straight leg 421Cs, with plex windshields. Best bang for the buck, cheaper to maintain than the glass or later models, more useful load.

Mike C.

Plan on north of 25K for year 1 maintenance. You'll be lucky to get out of the first annual for less than 12K.
We bought at the top of the market in 2013 (~500K) and added full Garmin glass, radar, traffic, Gad43e,strakes etc. to make it one of the best equipped 421C's in existence. We also know we'll lose money when selling. Not sure how much we'll lose but I know the plane will get a lot of inquiries when its listed.
Tim, As I told you on the phone, make sure the plane has been flying a lot. That will reduce the likelihood of a big maintenance item popping up after the purchase. Of course the key word is "reduce"

And has low airframe time.

... uh, wait.... hmmm.

Mike C.