That was Mikes whole point. The expensive meridian costs more to operate than the jet when you factor in cost of capital, ongoing property taxes and insurance and manage to avoid an unlucky engine scenario.

Yep. you said it... Mike's whole point is to compare a $600k 501 with a $2.6M Meridian and then say that the capital cost is the difference.

It's not a fair comparison, especially if Tony is right, and I am sure he is and you can buy a Meridian sub $1M, but assuming the acquisition cost is comparable the dogmatic assertion that you can operate a Citation cheaper than a Meridian just goes completely out the window.

I'm not a big fan of the PA46... don't know a lot about them, but I do know it is one the most economical turboprops to operate.

I'm instructing a guy in an SR22T right now and as nice as it is, I simply cannot fathom dropping 1 million+ on one. Like old jet vs meridian my Tbone is cheaper to operate in every facet except fuel burn... yes the TwinBo costs far less to operate than the Cirrus because of acquisition cost of capital, insurance, CA personal property taxes, and maintenance. It also hauls more and does missions I couldn't do in a Cirrus. You could say the comparison isn't fair either, but it's still true. Life ain't fair either fellas.

An interesting spreadsheet I'm sure but the $2,000,000 invested works in both scenarios...Whether you buy the $2.6 million Meridian or the $600,000 501, if you put the $600,000 down on the Meridian or buy the $600,000 jet you still have $2,000,000 invested at the point of purchase. The Meridian owner is going to lose money on payments to the loan and flying costs while making money on the rest of the investment. The 501 owner is going to lose money on the higher cost of the use of the jet, while making money on the investment. Who makes out in the end? LOL who cares you're in the flight levels.

I pay more for the Phenom recurrent training than I did for my average annual maintenance on the Meridian. The Meridian went annual to annual with no maintenance in between. I burn 2-3x more fuel(260pph vs 600-900 depending on altitudes) in the Phenom going about 50% faster 260kts vs 390kts. Not including the swap out of the landing gear at the 10 year overhaul (probably the biggest flaw ever in a maintenance program) the plane has needed just a handful of parts: Brakes, tires, BCU upgrade, 3 micro switches, PTT switch (turns out you CAN be too eager to talk to ATC)... It's on the parts program and all was covered but I'd wager Embraer is currently ahead on that deal. Neither plane was maintained by on field maintenance, but mobile operations were roughly the same "travel" costs for the techs. But the Meridian didn't need mobile repair and the Phenom has needed it twice. There's always the option to fly it .2 hours away but the cost/time benefit usually doesn't work. This being our first crack at jet ownership, I like the mind insurance of having the parts plan. I have no yearly minimum hours on it and for now it seems like a good enough deal. I hear things are a lot cheaper these days so I'm sure the parts program will reflect that when it's time to renew.

It's also on engine programs where we upgraded from Gold to Platinum for dollars more a month to cover corrosion as well as annual compressor washes. I view those engine programs as pay now or pay later. When we were looking to buy our plane the difference in cost between a Phenom on programs and off was exactly the hours multiplied by the hourly engine program cost. So might as well have one on programs with the piece of mind of having parts and labor covered as well as a bunch of hours already paid in. I hear jet engines are pricey to fix, not one of the things I worry about as an owner., but that peace of mind comes in at a cost of about $500 an hour with also no yearly minimum hours(Pratts).

The cost of hangar space seems irrelevant because you're going to pay what you can get at a field that works for you.

Insurance was 2.5x times the cost for the Meridian vs the Phenom. about $14k vs $36k. That's with an updated replacement hull value to match with current markets and higher per seat limits though, so maybe not apples to apples, but figure 1 and 1.2%ish of hull value as a round number. Insurance is also tighter now than 2 years ago, so not sure what a current Meridian Insurance would be but I'm sure the gap is smaller. Our first year Phenom insurance was $28k.

All that being said, the full economics of a Meridian vs *whatever* can't be fully realized until both have gone through the full ownership cycle and that's on a very individual basis. I bought my Meridian new and sold it 8 years later for $700,000 less than I paid for it (1100 hours I think?). I bought my 2013 Phenom 2 years ago (900 hours) and could sell it for 60% more than I paid for it. But since I'm not in the market to sell and I think this market will soften hard in the next 12 months, its just make believe numbers. I'd also be planeless in a plane starved environment with lots of trips already planned.

So Total Cost of Ownership - TBD, but we can all hope and kid ourselves these inflated plane prices are here to stay!
Day to day costs? lol you're only kidding yourself if you think you can run a jet program on a Meridian budget, wrong plane to pick an economics fight with. The fuel bill alone makes it a non-starter.

Chip-

I'd like to point out that this is exactly why Op Cost does not typically include acquisition cost, when we do include acquisition cost we refer to it as "total cost" or "all in cost".

On the acquisition cost side there are simply too many variables, the biggest currently being the tax savings, aircraft buyers are often spending more than they need to spend because the tax incentive drives them to do so. We have a client in a beautiful TBM 700c2 that we bought him last December, fresh engine, recent paint and interior that is striking, full Garmin panel, it's awesome... he just hired us to buy him a TBM 930/940.

Why? Same tax problem as last year.

Do you think that he doesn't understand that his direct op cost will be virtually identical. but that his all in cost will go way up?

This is not a stupid person. I'm not going to share his business, but his reasoning in all of this couldn't be more sound.

By the way, the 700c2 was off market and the owner was thinking of selling, was very glad we reached out and I just hung up the phone a few minutes ago with the owner of a really nice TBM 930 (we emailed him and he called us) he was thinking about selling the airplane and now he is. I go to look at it next week.

Doesn’t pass the sniff test that you can run a twin engine complex jet for the price of an almost piston simple single engine turbine. But if you did want to go complete apples to apples comparison and go low budget on a Meridian You could do it ridiculously cheap. There are almost no required interval maintenance on them, except for annual inspections. The engine doesn’t even require a hot section or overhaul part for part 91 operations. Most of those engines could probably go 5-6000 hours with minimal maintenance. If you wanted to trade your own time for airplane downtime, scrutinizing every bit of maintenance, sending everything out to be refurbished rather than replaced new, and deferring non-airworthy items, which are probably most of the cost of any annual. Then maintenance is going to be dirt cheap, but my time has value, and it’s not going to pen out in the downtime ans personal time of refurbishing parts, supervising inspections and maintenance, sourcing my own parts and such. I justify my plane for its business use, which entails getting me to places in the Rocky Mountains with all of its hostile, terrain and hostile weather on a tight schedule. For that mission the meridian makes a lot of sense. It’s a go almost anywhere almost anytime aircraft, has exceptional reliability and it’s cheap enough that I don’t even consider driving on any trip less than 80 or so nm as long as the destination has an airport. Sometimes I will fly to the next town or two just to avoid rush hour traffic and not even blink at the trivial op expenses. Even if travel time is the same, so much more relaxing to fly. I wouldn’t do that in a jet, esp one on engine, maintenance and or parts plans. I like the technology in the new aircraft, and the fact that the avionics are heavily integrated into the air frame. All the safety features there to protect me and my family if I am having a really bad day, and the fact that the airframe is still being built, and it is not going to be obsoleted any time soon. I applaud Mike for making it work. Wouldn’t work for me. I would be eaten alive by cost, complexity, and frustration of all that it entails to manage a legacy jet.

I'm instructing a guy in an SR22T right now and as nice as it is, I simply cannot fathom dropping 1 million+ on one. Like old jet vs meridian my Tbone is cheaper to operate in every facet except fuel burn... yes the TwinBo costs far less to operate than the Cirrus because of acquisition cost of capital, insurance, CA personal property taxes, and maintenance. It also hauls more and does missions I couldn't do in a Cirrus. You could say the comparison isn't fair either, but it's still true. Life ain't fair either fellas.

I am vastly more transparent than any of your posts, publishing actual numbers of what I spend, to the penny. That is as honest as it gets.

Everybody knows what my engine strategy is, no deception there.

I doubt you can find a more informative and factual poster on BT than me, so calling me dishonest is off base.

Mike C.

I think at this point is best to tell Chip he is right about everything and we move on. LOL

Chip thank you for the education and all your valuable advice.

Bummer I made the huge mistake of getting a legacy citation when I should have just got a Meridian. Hopefully you will save others from making the same mistake.

Actually I could not afford a newer Meridian so really should not own a plane at all. Too much risk.

Mike

Sarcasm noted Mike.

There’s a 1000 reasons to get a jet over a Meridian. Op cost doesn’t happen to be one of them.

More bs from you saying I would talk someone into a Meridian over a Citation. You know it isn’t true at this point, so you’re just deflecting.

This was never about me being right, this was about you guys stating something that wasn’t true, and attacking me when I pointed out the fallacy in what was said.

I don’t need anyone to say I’m right, the the entire assertion that any jet can be operated cheaper than a Meridian was ridiculous from the start.

Need.

Paragraphs.

TLDR

Just gets old.

Let people share their experience. It’s not your job to protect everyone. I don’t think people in this thread are paying for your advice.

Mike C has not made any false claims and neither have I. We share our experiences and are transparent.

I stand by my opinion that if you can afford a $2.5mm SETP you can afford a legacy citation. You get a lot more performance, safety, comfort, and seats.

I was scared of moving to a jet because guys like you said it’s expensive and way more work. That’s not been my experience. The training isn’t that bad and I have really enjoyed it.

I pay about $165k a year all in cost (loan, hangar, insurance, training, subscriptions, and maintenance. not including fuel. That even includes my min engine program cost of 150 hours per year.

I have 1800nm range 10 seat belts, FL430, and 375 knot cruise.

Mike

Seems odd to leave fuel out of the cost.

How many hours/year?

It surely does if you pay a lot for the SETP like a TBM or PC-12.

This is especially true now that the cost of money has increased enormously in recent times.

An extra $1M in purchase price is about $80K in lost interest or investment income per year. That buys a lot of fuel.

You also have to look at cost per mile, what does it cost for a given mission mix.

In 2022, I paid $157,654 to fly 122.1 hours in the 560, see my thread where I detailed the costs:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=221386

It would take 200 hours to do the same flights (ignoring the obvious payload limitations) for a Meridian, possibly more depending on how much headwind was involved. That would work out to $788/hour for the Meridian. The Meridian yearly expenses for 200 hours should be less than that, but not a whole lot less. If the capital cost is higher for the Meridian, then there is extra "expense" in the cost of money.

Take into account cost of money and cost per mile and the seemingly "obviously cheaper" planes aren't as low as one would think.

I could afford to fly a Meridian. I can afford a Citation V. I can't afford a TBM or PC-12.

Mike C.

It surely does if you pay a lot for the SETP like a TBM or PC-12.

This is especially true now that the cost of money has increased enormously in recent times.

An extra $1M in purchase price is about $80K in lost interest or investment income per year. That buys a lot of fuel.

You also have to look at cost per mile, what does it cost for a given mission mix.

In 2022, I paid $157,654 to fly 122.1 hours in the 560, see my thread where I detailed the costs:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=221386

It would take 200 hours to do the same flights (ignoring the obvious payload limitations) for a Meridian, possibly more depending on how much headwind was involved. That would work out to $788/hour for the Meridian. The Meridian yearly expenses for 200 hours should be less than that, but not a whole lot less. If the capital cost is higher for the Meridian, then there is extra "expense" in the cost of money.

Take into account cost of money and cost per mile and the seemingly "obviously cheaper" planes aren't as low as one would think.

I could afford to fly a Meridian. I can afford a Citation V. I can't afford a TBM or PC-12.

Mike C.