BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 20:34

Username Protected wrote:

So improvements mean the original is by definition obsolete?

Yes.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 21:01

Just NIL.

I have read this entire thread over time.

A question:

If I have an order in now for a G1 for a delivery date this summer, do I have the option of being handed keys to a G1 or pay the upcharge and get a G2 OR do I have no choice because at some point the line will flop over to G2 and my delivery date drives whether I get a G1 or a G2?

If there is a line change over certain date, the long and short on positions before and after the date would be fun to watch. I do not see any info from Cirrus on the G2 when? issue.

RAS

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 21:02

Username Protected wrote:

Waited 5003 days to get it, 28 days to learn to fly it, and it is already obsolete.

Mike C.

so how many do they have to sell before you will admit any tiny aspect of the cirrus is successful ? 200? 500? 1000? If there any possible event or combination of events short of adding a 2nd engine that will cause you to call it anything other than an abject failure in every regard ?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 21:29

Username Protected wrote:

Cirrus is extremely successful. Sorry Mike.

Is that why Cirrus, after spending so much on SF50 development, stopped paying rent, was said to be close to bankruptcy, and eventually sold to the Chinese?

Man, I sure hope I'm never "extremely successful" like Cirrus.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 22:17

Username Protected wrote:

Although the autothrottle on the G2 is billed as an "enhancement", I don't see it that way.
Many of the owner-pilots come out of the piston segment. The G2 has a full capability avionics suite to fly the plane; use of the autothrottle can lure the pilot into a detachment from flying the airplane.

I have a similar worry.

The main point expressed in the video presentation posted earlier by the SF50 pilot was learning how to handle speed management. This is hard for a piston pilot because a prop plane slows down when you take power out. A jet doesn't, at least not quickly. It takes a while to get this right so you can do it naturally and without significant attention while you attend to other flying chores.

Now give this new pilots autothrottle. They are going to use it essentially all the time and become so automation dependent that should they need to hand throttle, it will be a problem just like the autopilot cripples who can't hand fly. The thrust lever in a turbine airplane is a MAJOR flight control, far more so than in a piston airplane. It would be best if the pilot flies the plane without AT for a good period of time before they start to use it.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 22:23

Username Protected wrote:

Looks like Cirrus/Garmin might be working on something new.....

Attachment:

870DA667-C945-485D-9C25-BB7F261F310F.png

Check out the altitude.....

Cirrus SF50 2.0?

Peace,
Don

From many pages back....April 23rd. I will bet 3.0 is in the works. There was another post on the COPA board that the order book is still growing.....

Peace,
Don

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 22:27

Username Protected wrote:

I have a similar worry.

The main point expressed in the video presentation posted earlier by the SF50 pilot was learning how to handle speed management. This is hard for a piston pilot because a prop plane slows down when you take power out. A jet doesn't, at least not quickly. It takes a while to get this right so you can do it naturally and without significant attention while you attend to other flying chores.

Now give this new pilots autothrottle. They are going to use it essentially all the time and become so automation dependent that should they need to hand throttle, it will be a problem just like the autopilot cripples who can't hand fly. The thrust lever in a turbine airplane is a MAJOR flight control, far more so than in a piston airplane. It would be best if the pilot flies the plane without AT for a good period of time before they start to use it.

Mike C.

You expressed my point better than I did Mike.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 22:28

https://www.flyingmag.com/cirrus-unveil ... vision-jet

Quote:

This aircraft is yet another game-changer in personal aviation and it’s made possible by the world-class team we have at Cirrus Aircraft.”
----
one of the last remaining pieces of the automation puzzle that can greatly reduce pilot workload in busy environments. The Garmin autothrottle system in the Vision Jet includes a number of built-in protection modes to guard against inadvertent stalls or overspeeds. The autothrottle can be engaged at 400 feet agl after takeoff and disengaged at 200 feet on approach, Cirrus said.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 23:35

Username Protected wrote:

Yeah. Anyone moving up to an SF50 is too stupid to be able to learn how to fly it. :scratch:

And automatic stability control creates bad drivers.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 23:51

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... -jet-pilot

Quote:

"Although Cirrus makes the slowest jet on the market, learning to fly the plane is all about speed management. I began writing down my errors during the transition, and the only error I've repeated relates to speed in the descent," he added. "At a typical cruise altitude of 27,000 feet or 28,000 feet, true airspeed will average 305 to 310 knots (Mach .51) and you’d better pull the power off before pointing the nose down for descent or you’ll bust the 250 KIAS VMO limitation and will certainly exceed the 200 KIAS speed limit below airspace layers.

It helps that the trailing link landing gear can be extended at 210 knots and approaches can be flown comfortably at 180 knots if needed by ATC."

edit - corrected wrong link

Username Protected · **Posted:** 09 Jan 2019, 23:56

Username Protected wrote:

If I have an order in now for a G1 for a delivery date this summer, do I have the option of being handed keys to a G1 or pay the upcharge and get a G2 OR do I have no choice because at some point the line will flop over to G2 and my delivery date drives whether I get a G1 or a G2?

I've never seen an aircraft company make a new version and an old version at the same time. They do a "block change", which means at some serial number, they stop making the old version and start making the new one, and never to go back. The reasons for this are pretty simple, it is a supply chain and support nightmare to have intermixed variations in the serial numbers. Can you imagine a possible future AD where they have to list every serial number due to this?

I consider it extremely unlikely Cirrus will allow position holders to receive newly manufactured G1 versions after some cut over point.

Given the iPhonesque nature of the Cirrus market, I wouldn't be surprised if there are G1 owners already trying to work out a trade-in to get a G2. That may be a way a few current position holders get satisfied at the prior contract price.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jan 2019, 06:47

another approach..
[youtube]https://youtu.be/v1DYv98-WLc[/youtube]

Username Protected · **Posted:** 10 Jan 2019, 07:04

Quote:

simpler to fly than a piston

[youtube]https://youtu.be/U7Yx5yOhdpc[/youtube]

dude mentions the ruddervators but any info on the automatic stability control stuff?

the little bits also kick in here & if they act up the procedure is?

Quote:

Below the jet’s ruddervator tail is the aircraft’s yaw stability augmentation system that comprises of two small surfaces on the aft end of the strakes. From the runway to 200 feet AGL, the surfaces automatically provide provides a “weak” yaw damp. After 200 feet, the yaw damp kicks in with more force.

link for above quote
http://twinandturbine.com/article/cirrus-vision-jet/

i bet the plethora bit mentioned here covers it

Quote:

The Vision Jet will feel familiar to SR pilots with throttle, sidestick, flaps and switches in similar locations. The Garmin Perspective integrated flight deck offers a plethora of workload-saving and safety features. The panoramic windscreen is among the best in the owner-flown turbine category.

a better bet is just flick the swirch

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jan 2019, 00:45

Username Protected wrote:

Tiny bit if you are talking gross weight performance. In the real world, the M600 almost never flies at gross weight with 2400 lb useful load just don't need that much fuel, whereas the M500 spends more time at GW. A light M600 handily outperforms an M500. Lightly loaded the M600 has a higher HP to weight ratio than an Extra 300

Chuck, would you be so kind as to check your POH for what the Takeoff - Ground Roll distance, and Over-50' Obstacle distance of a M600 is at sea level on a zero wind, ISA day with 1,600 pounds of people and fuel on board (useful load of a Meridian)?

I really wish I could find a PDF of the M600 POH.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 11 Jan 2019, 00:59

Username Protected wrote:

Chuck, would you be so kind as to check your POH for what the Takeoff - Ground Roll distance, and Over-50' Obstacle distance of a M600 is at sea level on a zero wind, ISA day with 1,600 pounds of people and fuel on board (useful load of a Meridian)?

I really wish I could find a PDF of the M600 POH.

Showing the ground roll of a Meridian at GW, sea level ISA is about 1800 feet, rotating at 85 KIAS and 0 flaps. Most use 1 notch of flaps for TO in the Meridian but there are no performance tables for 1 flap TO.

An M600 loaded with a Meridian useful load 5300 lbs due to the slightly heavier airframe would have a ground roll (interpolating) of roughly 1715 feet, so pretty close but the extra 100 HP makes a difference. That is also rotating at 85 KIAS, TO flaps, SL ISA.

Attachment:

1.jpg

[/quote]

Thank you!