It is no darling cosmetically. It is a corporate working airplane and has been all its life. In that regard, it might not be like a 501 which is more aligned with personal use.

On my next flight, the meter will tick over 10,000 hours. That's more than 4 million miles. The plane has a LOT left in it.

What is nice is the panel. That's basically the only upgrade I did. I seriously didn't want to fool with the mess that was there before.


Probably true for my plane's past owners.

I will make every penny back on the Garmin upgrade. I'm saving $8K/year just in subscription costs versus the UNS-1 (and that doesn't count the price for the UBS updater box I would have had to buy). I can fly on the same subscription the 172 guy buys. Keeping that mess of avionics working would be $20K per year or more. And then flying without 380 lbs of weight saves fuel, tires, brakes.

Mike C.

No, I paint you as ignorant of the ecosystem I operate in. You don't think it exists and tell people so, claiming my results can't be achieved. Meanwhile, there are others here doing just that.

I acknowledge your ecosystem exists. There are hands off owners who want to be led to the expensive solutions by expensive consultants. That's your business model.

But mine does, also. You can operate a Citation inexpensively if you are an involved owner. This is true of a Bonanza or Baron, too. If you took them to a Textron service center, it would certainly cost more to operate them, wouldn't it?

Now if I could only get companies like yours to stop calling me to find out if my plane is for sale. Seriously, I get 10 calls a week. I realize this is your "secret sauce", the supposed "expertise" of finding off market airplanes by badgering owners, basically telemarketing. But it is getting annoying.

Mike C.

^I agree, I don't typically take the cold calling approach. I've removed most of our managed planes owners names/contact info from the databases at Jetnet and Amstat, you can do the same Mike.

I figure if someone wants to sell their aircraft, they will make it known rather than me pestering them trying to get lucky.

However, I have had luck on forums such as BT and FB citation groups finding off market jets as well as my relationship with Textron and other large brokers.

No, I paint you as ignorant of the ecosystem I operate in. You don't think it exists and tell people so, claiming my results can't be achieved. Meanwhile, there are others here doing just that.

I acknowledge your ecosystem exists. There are hands off owners who want to be led to the expensive solutions by expensive consultants. That's your business model.

But mine does, also. You can operate a Citation inexpensively if you are an involved owner. This is true of a Bonanza or Baron, too. If you took them to a Textron service center, it would certainly cost more to operate them, wouldn't it?

Now if I could only get companies like yours to stop calling me to find out if my plane is for sale. Seriously, I get 10 calls a week. I realize this is your "secret sauce", the supposed "expertise" of finding off market airplanes by badgering owners, basically telemarketing. But it is getting annoying.

Mike C.

This graph shows that our company only does acquisitions, if you look up brokers who also do acquisitions, you will find that the vast majority of their business is sales not acquisitions. It says since 2022 because that's how their system works, we've done acquisitions only since 2015.

Chip,

You told me I will have a $50-100K maintenance event on my plane. Not sure why you would make such a statement. I my guess is its to scare people away from legacy jets so you can justify selling them newer planes. Or maybe there is another reason? Does not make sense.

It's flat out wrong and bad information. You say you have experience so your position is valid. But you are wrong so your experience is not working. Explain how I have a $100k event thats not an accident that insurance would cover. I am on engine programs so it wont be an engine issues. Let's hear your justification for such a silly scare tactic statement.


Just this week I had a NDT inspection needed and need fire bottles hydro tested. I got a quote from a shop for the bottles that would have me down for over 2 weeks and cost over $3k. With Mikes help (thanks Mike C) I get advance replacements for $900 and will be down for a few hours. The average guy would have either had it down for 2 weeks or paid even more to buy new bottles. Thats the world you live in and justify. I am in the $900 world.

Oh I also found a guy that just does NDT and he will do the inspection for $600 plus renting the standard for $300. I was quoted $3k for this inspection from 2 shops and now paying under $1K.

After my last 1-4 I am now set on maintenance for over a year and even then its just small stuff like ELT, fire extinguisher weight, etc.. If I take all my maintenance over the last 2 years I am less than I paid to maintain my Mirage and 421.

At under 200 hours per year it's very unlikely that I will have any real maintence issues found in inspections.

It's these statements you make that cause these arguments. You have an agenda and it's the opposite of most of us on BT.

And financing and insurance are fine on these planes. I have a good rate and fair insurance for hull value and seat belts. Of course a plane with 10 seat belts will cost more than one with 6. You keep saying financing and insurance is a problem but thats not true. Lots of guys doing just fine. Another scare tactic.

Your statement that a 70's jets will soon be worth as little as a plane from the 60's is also wrong. What 60's jet can be flown single pilot and upgraded with the latest Garmin panel available? None... So silly to even make that comparison.

Stop making false claims to support your business model. it's not helping your credibility.

BTW I am on BT and other plane forums like CJP to learn from guys like Mike C. There is an amazing network from legacy guys like Mike C, Michael T, etc.. Lots of guys here in this thread have been very helpful to me. Without this network I could not own and fly a jet like I do. Its an amazing community that for whatever reason you have decided is bad and you will fight.

its OK to have both worlds exist. I have no issues with guys that pay top dollar for jets and their maintenance. Someone wants to buy a newer jet like a Vision or M2 thats cool. It helps bring the value up on my plane. A lot of those Vision jet guys will want a real jet someday.

But the world has changed in the last 5 years with legacy jets and the market is proving it. You can not argue with the market value of these Legacy jets. Well maybe you will. LOL

Mike

Mike

These are all valid points and I truly do appreciate the conversation. I have learned a ton from BT an hope to also inform others.

I think we have beaten the service center vs independent shop angle to death. Just like with cars, there are people that take their cars to the dealer and those who use independent shops. Neither is better than the other. Not everyone has a good independent shop near them and not everyone wants to spend the time to manage said shops.

But I am still struggling with this whole engine reserves thing. I dislike it because it is an accounting fiction. What number should I use? The programs number is inflated because it includes profits to the manufacturer and includes doing overhauls. Do your reserve numbers account for overhauls? None of us are going to do them on a Part 91 plane. It's a waste of money. Most of the internals now are on condition so the timing and cost of repair/replacement it unknown. Someone who runs their engines cooler than someone else should have a longer interval before needing repair/replacement. How do you account for that? The HSI interval at 125 flight hours/year is 14 years. Assuming $100k per engine for the HSI, you're talking $114/hour for both engines or $14,000/year. I'm comfortable with that number but it still may be on the high side. Tarver's getting HSIs done for a lot less but like anything, it depends on how the plane was treated, where it lived, etc.

I don't recall these arguments on the piston side. Is it just because everyone knows the costs and probabilities of replacing cylinders and/or entire motors so it doesn't need to be stated?

Just use the current replacement value. I believe for your engines this is in the 100-200/hr range for value of time remaining on salvage engines. Add whatever your R&R cost is divided by time remaining on the replacement engines.

-J

These are all valid points and I truly do appreciate the conversation. I have learned a ton from BT an hope to also inform others.

I think we have beaten the service center vs independent shop angle to death. Just like with cars, there are people that take their cars to the dealer and those who use independent shops. Neither is better than the other. Not everyone has a good independent shop near them and not everyone wants to spend the time to manage said shops.

But I am still struggling with this whole engine reserves thing. I dislike it because it is an accounting fiction. What number should I use? The programs number is inflated because it includes profits to the manufacturer and includes doing overhauls. Do your reserve numbers account for overhauls? None of us are going to do them on a Part 91 plane. It's a waste of money. Most of the internals now are on condition so the timing and cost of repair/replacement it unknown. Someone who runs their engines cooler than someone else should have a longer interval before needing repair/replacement. How do you account for that? The HSI interval at 125 flight hours/year is 14 years. Assuming $100k per engine for the HSI, you're talking $114/hour for both engines or $14,000/year. I'm comfortable with that number but it still may be on the high side. Tarver's getting HSIs done for a lot less but like anything, it depends on how the plane was treated, where it lived, etc.

I don't recall these arguments on the piston side. Is it just because everyone knows the costs and probabilities of replacing cylinders and/or entire motors so it doesn't need to be stated?

I am vastly more transparent than any of your posts, publishing actual numbers of what I spend, to the penny. That is as honest as it gets.

Everybody knows what my engine strategy is, no deception there.

I doubt you can find a more informative and factual poster on BT than me, so calling me dishonest is off base.

Mike C.

Mike..... Slow down buddy. Chip's bone of contention is about ENGINE reserves. This does not apply to you since you are on programs. The cost of those programs would be included in your operating costs.

Chip is correct in that Mike C and I WILL have a $50-100k bill due at some point whenever one of our High Pressure turbine wheels needs replacement. The problem with trying to account for that in the present is that you have to guess in how many hours that will occur. It may happen next year it may happen in 15 years and be discovered at our next HSI. We may be able to find a salvage one for a fraction of the price. Maybe ours can be repaired by replacing a some of the blades. My point is that over or underestimating this time interval will radically skew the operating costs. Plus it's not a cost until it actually occurs.

So I think the only "fair" thing to do is to report costs as incurred with an asterisk that at some point the engines will need some expensive parts. But as I said before, how is this different from the piston world? Anyone can look at a piston plane for sale and know that they may have to replace the engine at some point.

Other than the engines MikeC also brought up cost of capital which Chip seems to ignore. If we compare say a 2.6m Meridian with a 600k 501, you're keeping 2 mil invested and even in TBills at near 6% that gives you 120k per year for your fuel and engine fund. Are jetaq commissions based on purchase price?

I don’t do Meridian’s, but we would charge the same to buy a $600k 501 as a $2.5M CJ1 or any other light jet.

Why would we compare a $600k 501 with a $2.6M Meridian? Can’t a Meridan be bought in the low $1M’s? (I’m asking because I don’t know)

Not sure how this turned into comparing a 2.6 million dollar Meridian to a legacy 501.
To be fair, you can buy a beyond TBO legacy Meridian well below a million. I believe the capitalization between the two legacy aircraft are going to be very comparable. A Meridian flown 125 hours a year is gonna run you roughly 80-90K.