Then you saw the logbooks and you saw what the work they did on those motors to keep them going.

Do you have E&O insurance?

I do… and if I made the same public statements that you do, my carrier would drop me.

And that’s not FUD, call them and ask them.

I’m not trying to be ugly, but we have contrary motivations, I want to protect buyers and you guys want to sell the promise of cheap jet operations.

By scaring them into thinking hiring you prevents some financial disaster for them.

And if someone contradicts you, you imply they are lying in a way they would be sued.

This is all about maintaining that aura of value around your business, you have to discredit counter examples.


I publish my actual numbers.

I don't promise anything, I simply show you what I am doing.

Where is your data? Got something more than campfire spooky stories?


If I sold my plane today, my acquisition cost would be about negative $1M. It is worth about $1M more than I paid for it. Obviously that will change in time, but when you buy an airplane that does its job well, it tends to hold its value.

No Citation is worth $25K, even missing engines entirely and out of inspection. There is a strong salvage market for them since the parts are shared among so many airplanes out there. A pair of serviceable main wheels would be worth nearly that alone, for example. The low entry price and high salvage value limit your downside in a legacy Citation.

If someone wants to fly a jet, the legacy Citations are clearly the least expensive way to do it. I am spending about 50% more per mile than my MU2 to fly my 560. That feels like a bargain to me since the MU2 was so economical. My maintenance costs have been quite manageable, maybe even less per mile than the MU2 due primarily to the vastly longer inspection intervals under the LUMP program. The larger availability of resources to work on it has also helped a lot.

My fuel costs dominate my expenses. A Meridian wouldn't be like that. It has its place. But if you start playing in the TBM and PC12 space, then a jet can be flown for similar money.

Mike C.

Hey Mike... get some new material!



It's Monday morning and I'm too busy to go back and forth, but I can't resist the salvage value statement.

Let me explain to you how salvage companies work, they buy the aircraft for the value of the engines, they sell those engines to recoup their initial investment, they then sell the parts to cover their cost of transport, disassembly, and all the other steps that go into selling legal parts... and hopefully make a profit.

If you have 5250 since overhaul on a set of JT15D's, they are worth maybe $50k

Subtract your expenses from that and you get $25k...

I'm not saying the salvage yard won't make $200k - $350k over several years selling your parts, but they aren't going to pay you that.

You keep missing the part where I was buying and selling old Citations twenty years ago, and yes I have sold numerous airplanes to salvage yards.

I don't just make this stuff up, and yes, if you're around long enough you see people get sued. I've seen brokers get sued, I've even seen a few go to prison.

You can't, over a ten year period, operate a Citation as cheap as a Meridian... you just can't. Can you do it for a few years, sure. But long term, you can't. You can come on here and insinuate you can, but as a service to anyone who reads this thread I'm going to call you out and explain why it can't be done.

Chip,

I can and am flying my Citation for less than a newer Meridian. And I can fly it for many years and not lose value. In fact it has and will go up in value. Especially once I get digital autopilot and finish my panel.

I get double the value out of my plane then a small 6 seater SETP. I have 1800nm range and 10 seat belts. It’s fast, safe, and comfortable. I have zero risk of catastrophic engine issues.

If I listened to guys like you I would be flying around in a small single with low range. With a huge loan payment. Much happier with my 4500fpm initial climb, 375 knot cruise, and low cap cost.

Mike

Ironically someone who isn’t on Beechtalk just sent me this video.

The kid makes a couple of mistakes, such as saying the Phase 5 is 2 / 4 year intervals instead of 3 / 6, but overall a decent run through of ownership cost.

https://youtu.be/XiKL5F7atSw?si=PDV-Gx_2cXLhENQl

I listen to the guys who have the planes, not the guys who talk about the planes

The two seem to be fairly far apart, usually

I have watched their videos on the citation as well. They do a pretty good job

I have had way worse maintenance bills on my Mirage, and 421. In fact annually my 501 is less than both of those. Heck my turbo Saratoga had a $30k annual.

I have not owned a turbo prop. Glad I jumped that stage. But the legacy citation isn’t as bad as it seems.

If you add up all the inspections for my citation over the 3 years and look at annual cost it’s not that bad. And now that I have done all inspections I know it’s all good. So from now on it’s just inspections and not much maintenance expected.

If I didn’t have to do the inspections most of my issues would not have happened. I have more maintenance induced issues than things breaking on their own.

Mike

This is the blind leading the blind. The fact you find it consistent with your expectations is concerning. At least the kid admits he is new to this.

For example, he paid $3600 for four fire bottle cartridges (which have a 10 year life). You can buy them for about $300 each, or $1200 for a set and it takes less than an hour of labor to change all four. That's $120/year for that system, which isn't too bad.

BTW, the fire bottle thing on Citations is kind of useless. I dream one day of getting an STC to remove it on the basis that the Citation fleet doesn't need it based on the record. Would save some weight and some maintenance costs. But, like everyone else, I plod along having it since the incremental cost of just complying is simpler than changing the rules.

This video is a perfect example of how ignorance will cost you in aircraft ownership. A little bit of knowledge about where to get parts and work done can dramatically change the cost profile.

I couldn't stomach the presentation so I didn't watch it all, does he ever mention the shop he used? That makes a huge difference.

Mike C

If someone bought a Meridian in Dec 2020 like I bought my 560, we both fly it the same miles on the same missions, and we both sold for going market rate today, now 3 years later, guess who operated their airplane for less money?

I did.

My total cost, all dollars in and out, would be about negative $500,000. My airplane's market value has gone up so much that I could sell it and get every dollar back plus a big chunk more.

What will it be in another 7 years? I don't know, but I bet I'm doing reasonably well.

What about going 10 years back?

If one person bought a 501SP 10 years ago, and another a Meridian 10 years ago, they fly them on the same missions, and now they sell them in the current market, who is ahead?

I bet it is the 501SP owner. He probably paid $250-400K for it 10 years ago and the Meridian was $1.5M back then. Now they might sell for about the same, around $1M. The 501SP owner could have put the saved $1.2M in the SP500 and now would have $2.8M on that investment, too.

Money costs money. If you don't take that into account, you are missing the true economic impact of aircraft ownership.

Mike C.

If you want to compare planes, you shouldn't compare new Meridians to really old jets. I bought my 2006 Avidyne Meridian in 2016 for just over $900k. Had a hot section that was far more than the typical Meridian due to a combustion liner replacement that Pratt reduced drastically. Counting the hot section, I am probably averaging 20k year in maintenance. And I know the plane is worth more than what I paid for it. Burning 38gph is nice too. I probably don't fly as much as you Mike, so we can't compare total costs but I bet, on a cost per mile basis, I am far less than you. I can also get in and out of very short and/or contaminated runways. This fits my mission fine and I can't imagine I could fly a turbine for less.

Greg

Good points.


This discussion is never getting solved. It's subjective and lots of values at play.

Personally I look at the Vision jet and think why the hell would anyone own that. I am sure there are vision jet guys that look at my old citation and think the same thing. We all have our own values.

The issue is when someone like Chip comes on here and says guys like me and Mike C are wrong in our value system. Especially when Chip does not own a plane and is just speaking from his perspective as a broker. He is the definition of Biased.

Personally I care about performance per dollar, safety, speed, and comfort. I dont care about double stitching and new avionics. Others only care how it makes them feel. We are both right.

Mike

I'm with Greg, I got into a 2001 for $610K in 2021. it has had minor unscheduled issues but nothing shocking than a de-ice boot issue continuing issue. I had it down a lot this year for the fuel temp upgrade, but that was scheduling not anything else. I fly it for gas, plus the $12k in insurance.

I saw Michael's post on a 560 burning 800lbs an hour. That terrifies me. To each their own. 250lbs an hour is more my style.

This is better than my A36TN but that was just about as good performance wise and much cheaper.

The only problem I have with my plane is fuel capacity and UL. But it's workable and so I love it. This year went from El Paso to Houston to Green Bay for work trips and had a grin the whole way.

Can’t really compare prices from years ago.

How much is a M600 today compared to a 501? The M600 is way more cap
Cost.

You can get a used M600 for $2.6mm new $3.8mm 501’s for $6-700k

That’s a lot of jet fuel you can buy and fuel is a variable cost. Cap cost is fixed.

Mike

Hi Mike,

To be fair, to buy a 501 w/ similar avionics and interior to a Meridian you would be looking at $1-1.1M today. Still cheaper for sure but not THAT cheap.