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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2016, 22:29 
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Joined: 09/09/11
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Company: Ozark/TWA/American
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You are right, Dave, no harm, no foul, ducking under to shorten touch down point and landing roll if VMC. Especially in corp jets and smaller aircraft. Otherwise you will touching down too far down the runway that sometimes isn't all that long to start with. In larger aircraft, the landing gear hangs well below the pilot and the glideslope. As you approach CAT I minimums especially at night, however, ducking under becomes a risker move. Be aware everybody has a tendency in low vis, as you break out, to push the nose lower and get into the dreaded duck under. We are subconsciously trying to get the apparent horizon up to where we normally have the actual horizon. Lots of disagreement between pilots, instructors, management, and the FAA over this topic. I'm in the corporate world now after 30 years of flying and training in the airlines and I too was a little taken back by the almost extreme duck unders I was seeing but now it is pretty much SOP especially on the shorter runways. No good reason to leave all that runway behind you, day VMC.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 00:38 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Plan was to fly from Dallas to Marquette tonight. Long flight..3 hours. Landing at 2:30am. Catch a few z's and head to office around 10am. Weather forecast to be MVFR with lake effect snow. Doesn't take much to make it LIFR given the nature of such snow. The problem is if we get up there and have to miss we don't have a lot of fuel to play around with. Alternatives of IMT and ESC are 40-60 miles away. But once you get there you are basically sleeping in the plane. Green Bay is 150ish away and they have a hotel within walking distance. Problem is it is 1000ft ovc and susceptible to lowering given winds and snow. If you have to miss then what? Low fuel and lots of pressure. All doable operationally but at 2:30am it is pretty clear we won't be at our best. If we stay in Dallas we can get some rest. Leave at 6am and get there within an hour of the plan. Weather will be better and it will be light out. Used to be I would go tonight because...well...that was the plan and operationally it was doable. Things like what happened to Pascal and getting a little bit wiser with age makes me realize that one hour earlier to work doesn't look like a smart return on the investment required to get there. To some of you it may look like a no brainer. I did grind on this before realizing it was a no brainer. Also I figure it would look bad on CT. Live to see another day.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 12:24 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:

[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 12:44 
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With a 200ft ceiling, hitting the ground 2miles from the airport and off course is probably not 'ducking under'.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 14:40 
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Joined: 12/16/07
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Company: Real Estate development
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Thanks Jim: I'm not talking about landing on numbers, more like 50 above numbers when I cut the throttle (which can be below glide slope).
In the King Air I have shot for the numbers so I could make an early turn. With Beta, that can be pretty short. But I'm not ducking under glide slope on an ILS unless I'm landing visually with high ceilings. Actual instrument approach with ceilings below 800 feet or so, I'm on glide slope and localizer until round out.
Same with MDA. I don't go below until I can make a normal landing, but if cloud bottoms are ragged, no sense in popping back in if you can stay visual with a normal approach; so, I may start down just a bit early with a shallower approach to be sure I don't go IMC again. Of course, communicate it to co-pilot.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 15:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:

[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube]



Nice! And good plan waiting until today. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 15:49 
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Is that right seat all the way up? Or, does your co-pilot just like to stretch to get higher on short final ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 17:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:

[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube]


Good job Mark. Now where's the rear facing cockpit cam? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 21:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is that right seat all the way up? Or, does your co-pilot just like to stretch to get higher on short final ;)



Ha. Noticed that too.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 04 Apr 2016, 22:22 
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Joined: 01/07/13
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Company: Tupelo Aero, Inc
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The trick to going missed in a jet then having to go to the alternate is to execute the missed approach from your cruise altitude. If you are on the button on fuel, divert from cruise altitude. Nothing is worse than a a missed approach on bingo gas in crappy weather.

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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2016, 02:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:

[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube]

Mark - at 2:30 am, tired, dark and with the potential of deteriorating conditions, that would have been an approach I wouldn't have wanted to make. Good call and nice video.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2016, 11:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is that right seat all the way up? Or, does your co-pilot just like to stretch to get higher on short final ;)



Ha. Noticed that too.


Great job. I just mentioned that because my co-pilot on the last flight inadvertently lower his seat. Then, he couldn't raise it again without getting out of it, lifting, and getting back in. So, he did the same thing on short final.
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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2016, 11:53 
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Joined: 02/29/16
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Aircraft: CL35 BE300
I didn't know anyone ever moved a seat in a 500 series Citation!


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2016, 12:59 
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You can find the runway better if you get closer to the windshield.


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 Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2016, 13:20 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
She has to wear stripper shoes just to reach the rudder pedals. :liar: :lol:

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