15 Dec 2025, 09:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 03 Apr 2016, 22:29 |
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Joined: 09/09/11 Posts: 147 Post Likes: +54 Company: Ozark/TWA/American Location: St Louis, Mo
Aircraft: Be-58, Car Cub, RV8
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You are right, Dave, no harm, no foul, ducking under to shorten touch down point and landing roll if VMC. Especially in corp jets and smaller aircraft. Otherwise you will touching down too far down the runway that sometimes isn't all that long to start with. In larger aircraft, the landing gear hangs well below the pilot and the glideslope. As you approach CAT I minimums especially at night, however, ducking under becomes a risker move. Be aware everybody has a tendency in low vis, as you break out, to push the nose lower and get into the dreaded duck under. We are subconsciously trying to get the apparent horizon up to where we normally have the actual horizon. Lots of disagreement between pilots, instructors, management, and the FAA over this topic. I'm in the corporate world now after 30 years of flying and training in the airlines and I too was a little taken back by the almost extreme duck unders I was seeing but now it is pretty much SOP especially on the shorter runways. No good reason to leave all that runway behind you, day VMC.
_________________ _____________________________ Jim N777SG BE-58 1H0
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Apr 2016, 14:40 |
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Joined: 12/16/07 Posts: 19154 Post Likes: +30948 Company: Real Estate development Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
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Thanks Jim: I'm not talking about landing on numbers, more like 50 above numbers when I cut the throttle (which can be below glide slope). In the King Air I have shot for the numbers so I could make an early turn. With Beta, that can be pretty short. But I'm not ducking under glide slope on an ILS unless I'm landing visually with high ceilings. Actual instrument approach with ceilings below 800 feet or so, I'm on glide slope and localizer until round out. Same with MDA. I don't go below until I can make a normal landing, but if cloud bottoms are ragged, no sense in popping back in if you can stay visual with a normal approach; so, I may start down just a bit early with a shallower approach to be sure I don't go IMC again. Of course, communicate it to co-pilot.
_________________ Dave Siciliano, ATP
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Apr 2016, 15:06 |
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Joined: 12/09/10 Posts: 3634 Post Likes: +865 Location: KPAN
Aircraft: PA12
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Username Protected wrote: Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube] Nice! And good plan waiting until today. 
_________________ 520 M35, 7ECA, CL65, CE550, E170/190, B737 5/19 737 5/18 E170/190 8/17 CL65 3/17 CE500
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Apr 2016, 17:08 |
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Joined: 08/09/11 Posts: 2077 Post Likes: +2893 Company: Naples Jet Center Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
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Username Protected wrote: Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube] Good job Mark. Now where's the rear facing cockpit cam? 
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 04 Apr 2016, 21:58 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14581 Post Likes: +12368 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Is that right seat all the way up? Or, does your co-pilot just like to stretch to get higher on short final  Ha. Noticed that too.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 05 Apr 2016, 02:53 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2428 Post Likes: +2839 Location: Woodlands TX
Aircraft: C525 D1K Waco PT17
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Username Protected wrote: Landed at 10am. 600-1. Snow. Check it out:
[youtube]http://youtu.be/k2GN8_bXe6M[/youtube] Mark - at 2:30 am, tired, dark and with the potential of deteriorating conditions, that would have been an approach I wouldn't have wanted to make. Good call and nice video.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 05 Apr 2016, 11:37 |
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Joined: 12/16/07 Posts: 19154 Post Likes: +30948 Company: Real Estate development Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
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Username Protected wrote: Is that right seat all the way up? Or, does your co-pilot just like to stretch to get higher on short final  Ha. Noticed that too.
Great job. I just mentioned that because my co-pilot on the last flight inadvertently lower his seat. Then, he couldn't raise it again without getting out of it, lifting, and getting back in. So, he did the same thing on short final.
_________________ Dave Siciliano, ATP
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 05 Apr 2016, 11:53 |
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Joined: 02/29/16 Posts: 33 Post Likes: +11
Aircraft: CL35 BE300
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I didn't know anyone ever moved a seat in a 500 series Citation!
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 05 Apr 2016, 12:59 |
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Joined: 03/01/14 Posts: 2300 Post Likes: +2075 Location: 0TX0 Granbury TX
Aircraft: T-210M Aeronca 7AC
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You can find the runway better if you get closer to the windshield.
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