This has been a good thred to keep up with.

Thanks Chris for the input and the spread sheet.

Just make sure you adjust the numbers to fit your local situation. A Baron will fit into a 40ft T-hangar, a KA won't (....without the use of a sawzall). Assuming identical hangaring cost may or may not be appropriate.

Also, plug in mandatory landing gear overhauls as a 5 year item and an appropriate hourly reserve for prop-overhauls on those reversible 4-blade beasts.

With regards to a hangar.

FBO's at PDK compete for the big planes like KA's. I've even seen situations where hangar is free so long as you buy fuel from them. These are stories I've heard. No personal experience. They'd boot me and my Bo out without noticing.

Anyone else seen this?

Jason,

Like I said earlier, and Florian reminded everyone - take that spreadsheet with a grain of salt. It is very generalized. There are so many different options available for each of those line items. The average hangar space is $604 for Barons and King Airs. I have seen them more expensive, and I have seen them cheaper - 604 is a nice average. Again, take it with a grain of salt, and change the numbers to meet your local condition.

Back when I managed a Meridian (about the same size as a Baron), I had our hangar down at 350/mo. Larger aircraft were commanding $700/mo. Our Starship topped out at 1000/mo.

Another wild card in this whole game is fuel. Fuel typically runs 30 to 50% of your total variable cost per hour. You can generate significant savings per hour by concentrating on this single line item. Sometimes, it's worth it to go in on a partnership in a private hangar with your own fuel. You may pay more per month in hangar, but what you'll save in fuel is huge! We did this very strategy with the Starship, and it paid off in spades. Another is keeping a careful eye on transient fuel uplift. By utilizing fuel contracts, you can significantly affect the bottom line D/VOC's.

I point all this out to highlight why one needs to be mindful when reading these spreadsheets. It's too easy for dealers and brokers to print these things off from C&D or Jetnet. You can get these numbers to say anything - talk to a qualified person who doesn't have a horse in the game before you buy (literally and figuratively) into these numbers. What you think might work may in fact not, and vice versa.

Florian,

The ldg gear o/h is already calculated into the numbers as is the prop overhaul. A resourceful manager can get the prop o/h'd for $5k per side, and the ldg. gear done for around $10k or less. The props are 4000 hr/6 yr items IIRC, and the gear is a 5 yr item. It's hard to come up with a hard and fast per hour number for each of those as the hours flown in a year are variable. Furthermore, more often than not, you'll calendar out before you time out (unless the aircraft is hard core 135). In that case, the argument exists for a manager to include this as a fixed reserve cost as opposed to a variable reserve cost.

And despite 10k here and 5k there, your hourly maintenance cost for a KA and a Baron remain the same ?

Sorry about picking nits with your numbers .

Florian,

Actually, that is not true. The number that is the same is the labor number. A Baron mechanic will spend about as much time working on a Baron as he will on a King Air - in some cases less on a King Air as some things are easier to get to compared to the Baron. The Parts line item is different as parts for Barons are slightly cheaper. The other thing to factor is that the props are due far sooner on a Baron than they are on a King Air so that will increase the maintenance line items. OTOH, the engine reserve is extremely lower on the Baron for obvious reasons. While you'll overhaul 2 cycles for every 1 on a turbine installed in the King Airs, it is still far cheaper to reserve for a top notch, proper overhaul for a Baron.

Florian, I invite you to place your numbers up for review. As I have repeatedly said from the outset, these are generalized numbers coming from multiple sources - some mine, some others. Take them with a grain of salt. Clearly you doubt them as you are entitled to think; however, I bet that the rest of those reading this board would love to see alternatives to these numbers I have posted (whether from you or anyone else) in order to compare, contrast, and learn. I can say personally that I love seeing different numbers and matrices - there's always something to learn from anyone/everyone else.

So, will you please put up your numbers?

Chris
would you elaborate on this fuel strategy stuff... please. specifically acquiring my own fuel, as well as what it means to keep my eye on transient fuel uplift. excuse my ignorance.

btw...
thanks so much for your input chris. you always seem to bring lots to the table. i so much rather read your posts than those that proffer 2nd hand info from a friend of a friend who's brother's aunt gave birth to a bastard son under a harvest moon who grew up to bop some chick behind the hangar and overheard the cheap rants of son of a bit that rents a 152 once every 6 months and has absolutely no practical info on b-craft,,,

2nd btw,,, your admittedly slight bias is cool. after all we aren't talking piper.

I may have misunderstood your spreadsheet there. Your hourly maintenance cost for a Baron is listed as $237.37, your hourly maintenance cost for a King Air as $246.37. It is basically the same.

Where in your spreadsheet are the props and gear ? Are they in the 'engine and hot-section' number or would they fall into the 'labor and parts' part of the maintenance portion ?

I am trying to understand those numbers, if I already had them, I wouldn't try to pick through the ones provided.

I sort of know how much the Twinky I fly requires for maintenance* as I have the maintenance records for it going back to 1996. I would love to fly a Baron, but looking at your numbers, the hourly maintenance cost for a Baron seem to be multiples of the Twinky, so if they are correct and a a Baron is indeed in King Air territory operating cost wise, I can scratch that plan.


*which is similar to the KA in that they require gear overhauls on regular intervals

To make it easy, I bill myself $250 an hour for the Bo. Do X3 for the Baron.

All my friends with KA90's bill themselves at $1400 an hour.

I think these are liberal estimates but they always seem to work out.

no you guys totally missed the point about the new airplane thing i posted earlier (previous page)...i was putting the "idiot" line in quotes because that's what some people say who can't appreciate a situation other than their own. My whole point is that the new aircraft purchasers are not idiots at all (far from it)...rather the circumstances around everybody's situation are very different. New makes sense sometimes, but for others it doesn't.

If you lease a hangar from the airport sponsor (or if you are part of a condo-hangar), the airport cannot restrict you from bringing in your own fuel. You are now an 'individual user' and as such protected by FAA funding rules. They may restrict you from installing your own tank and require you to store the fuel in an airport owned tank-farm, but they can't force you to buy through an FBO. Given the at times steep markups that FBOs at busy airports command, the difference can be considerable, particularly for a turboprop or jet.

Chris
would you elaborate on this fuel strategy stuff... please. specifically acquiring my own fuel, as well as what it means to keep my eye on transient fuel uplift. excuse my ignorance.

btw...
thanks so much for your input chris. you always seem to bring lots to the table. i so much rather read your posts than those that proffer 2nd hand info from a friend of a friend who's brother's aunt gave birth to a bastard son under a harvest moon who grew up to bop some chick behind the hangar and overheard the cheap rants of son of a bit that rents a 152 once every 6 months and has absolutely no practical info on b-craft,,,

2nd btw,,, your admittedly slight bias is cool. after all we aren't talking piper.

I may have misunderstood your spreadsheet there. Your hourly maintenance cost for a Baron is listed as $237.37, your hourly maintenance cost for a King Air as $246.37. It is basically the same.

Where in your spreadsheet are the props and gear ? Are they in the 'engine and hot-section' number or would they fall into the 'labor and parts' part of the maintenance portion ?

I am trying to understand those numbers, if I already had them, I wouldn't try to pick through the ones provided.

I sort of know how much the Twinky I fly requires for maintenance* as I have the maintenance records for it going back to 1996. I would love to fly a Baron, but looking at your numbers, the hourly maintenance cost for a Baron seem to be multiples of the Twinky, so if they are correct and a a Baron is indeed in King Air territory operating cost wise, I can scratch that plan.


*which is similar to the KA in that they require gear overhauls on regular intervals

Just make sure you adjust the numbers to fit your local situation. A Baron will fit into a 40ft T-hangar, a KA won't (....without the use of a sawzall). Assuming identical hangaring cost may or may not be appropriate.

Also, plug in mandatory landing gear overhauls as a 5 year item and an appropriate hourly reserve for prop-overhauls on those reversible 4-blade beasts.

I am still a bit baffled. Lets say I fly a Baron 150hrs/year, based on your numbers I would have to budget $35,400/year for maintenance (before engine/prop reserves and before any upgrades ). That is a lot of money for 6 oil changes and an annual and 'misc stuff falling off'.

It is certainly at variance with what others post in the various 'how much do you pay for an annual' threads.

Based on the numbers from your spreadsheet, the DOC for a Baron is $477/hr, apportioning the fixed cost in the spreadsheet at 150hrs/year, the hourly cost is $821.48 .