I'm not going line by line because I don't have the time and you simply do not get it.

It's not the buyer... it is the seller that is uncomfortable with small shops.

And, large shops weaponized by the buyer?

That hasn't been my experience with Textron. I discovered they were putting blinders on to do pre-purchase inspections. They even admitted they've been doing it that way for as long as two years at some locations.

Problem is they didn't tell anyone they had changed, in fact just a few years ago they gave the buyer a prebuy warranty, they go from that to hardly a prebuy at all and now they won't even tell the buyer or seller which items are unairworthy.

Again Mike, this is what I do every day and yet you continue to try to paint this picture that I'm the one that doesn't understand.

You’ve made your point, you don’t want big shops working on your airplane, I doubt they want you as a customer. It’s a win-win.

I'm curious as its been decades since I ran a CESCOM but IIRC they used to project a cost figure for each event?
Is there any projected cost for a clean 1-5 inspection these days?
Or was the $450K bill run up with "found" items?

That's because I am not defending them.

All true.

I’ll just add that its a small industry and the next time he needs them it will probably be “pound sand”

JetEast, now West Star , is a good company, staffed with good people. The reason Jet East could do it, is because that m’s their core business, supporting NetJets, including AOG. They charged Mike the same amount they would’ve charged NetJets.

It’s extremely easy for someone with limited experience with a vendor to come on here and bash the company, as I’ve said before, all these maintenance facilities are apt to disappoint. That is due enlarge part to the fact that they are overworked and overwhelmed. Remember, that they have more business than they can take care of, so they are going to take care of the people that play nice with them.

And here’s a warning to all turbine aircraft operators, it’s about to get a whole lot worse. The Textron service centers have basically chased away the majority of their pre-purchase inspection business, all those pre-buys have to go to the shops that Mike is bashing, they are already at capacity.

If you need any work done, especially a Prebuy, between now and the end of the year, you better get on it now.

You can get "baseline" costs for various inspections from various sources, including Textron if you ask.

Although I have never used them, Skyway MRO (formerly Sierra Industries) has a catalog with inspection costs for various models. You can get that here:

https://skyway-mro.com/wp-content/uploa ... 024web.pdf

In that document for Citation V (model 560, page 28) they show phase 1-5 as $43K which is still pretty high, but not outrageous. My shop phase 1-4 baseline cost was just under $10K, Skyway adds to $14,378 for the same thing. My phase 1-4 ended up about $13K with findings and fixes, excluding the ACM overhaul/rebuild (which I did half the work on and all the parts and service sourcing).

Since I am on a LUMP, I go through a phase 1-4 and phase 1-5 every 6 years, that totals $56K from Skyway MRO for baseline costs, or about $9K per year. Not a scary number.

What drives the cost of the inspection is mostly what is deemed unairworthy. The high end shops want the plane to be like new when it leaves and that is just not appropriate for an older Citation. Despite that, they sometimes leave things in crap states like my fresh air duct. So it doesn't seem consistent.

I would take the Skyway MRO as a reasonable listing of prices for reference.


"Found" items. The issue is really not what was found, but the strategy used to address the issues and the intolerance of accepting perfectly functional things that were not perfect. Approximately $100K of the cost was main gear axles under dimensional tolerance. The gear could have been reworked saving most of that cost.

There were also cases of wasted effort, like swapping in TWO replacement CVRs only to find the original one was fine and the fault was a loose wire. They spent about $4K on that alone. It is not so much what was found, it is the manner in which every thing was fixed in the most expensive way possible. Textron engineering and DERs were called in several times on things that really didn't need such expensive review.

A case in point: they squawked both pitot tubes for corrosion. All pitot tubes of that age have some from being hot and flying through 400 knot air for thousands of hours, they are not all shiny any more but that doesn't affect their function at all. My pitot tubes are not fully shiny chrome any more, either. Replaced, cost about $5K.

Had my plane gone in and the ACM was found to be needing overhaul, they would have exchanged it with Textron at a cost of $45K (with a $75K core deposit you might not get all back, too). I rebuilt my ACM for $13K. Multiply those kind of things by dozens and dozens of squawks and you get a huge invoice.

The invoice was 105 pages long.

Mike C.

Chip, let's say for argument sake someone was looking at a Mustang and needed a pre-buy, as they are looking to close the deal in July. You're saying it's 6 months to get that done?

For a king air, I suggest you do not do a prebuy survey and instead get a full phase inspection done

If a broker suggests a prebuy survey in lieu of a full phase, seek a second opinion

I don’t have time to go through it all but it seems super unfortunate that you’ve had such consistently bad experiences with so many people trying to overcharge you for substandard work.

Change my tune? At the end of the day, we probably have a lot more in common than you recognize. I come here for fun, learning and entertainment. I’m not boasting about how cheaply I fly the single pilot jet that I own and fly but it seems like, in your view, that I would be more credible to you if I did.

My tune remains that most bizav professionals are hardworking and honest people who work to deliver sound advice and safe services and I rarely have found the low bidder to deliver the best value. It’s often painful to the checkbook, but I can’t begrudge repair stations for wanting to make a profit while delivering a reliable plane for me or friends and clients and I’m certain you don’t run your business any differently or you wouldn’t be flying a jet around.

I don’t have time to go through it all but it seems super unfortunate that you’ve had such consistently bad experiences with so many people trying to overcharge you for substandard work.

Change my tune? At the end of the day, we probably have a lot more in common than you recognize. I come here for fun, learning and entertainment. I’m not boasting about how cheaply I fly the single pilot jet that I own and fly but it seems like, in your view, that I would be more credible to you if I did.

My tune remains that most bizav professionals are hardworking and honest people who work to deliver sound advice and safe services and I rarely have found the low bidder to deliver the best value. It’s often painful to the checkbook, but I can’t begrudge repair stations for wanting to make a profit while delivering a reliable plane for me or friends and clients and I’m certain you don’t run your business any differently or you wouldn’t be flying a jet around.

This is 100% accurate, I’ll just add that a “phase 1&2” because the airplane just had a 3&4, isn’t a prebuy either, if you don’t do a 1-4, you are not getting a look at the entire aircraft.

Also, on any King Air prepurchase, do borescopes and always inspect the receiver dryer for signs of “black death”

This is 100% accurate, I’ll just add that a “phase 1&2” because the airplane just had a 3&4, isn’t a prebuy either, if you don’t do a 1-4, you are not getting a look at the entire aircraft.

Also, on any King Air prepurchase, do borescopes and always inspect the receiver dryer for signs of “black death”

If you don't do a scope on a turbine, your underwriter has an easy out if you have any engine FOD related event

Having a borescope done during the start of a new insurance policy coverage period, can prove extremely beneficial down the road should any unfortunate events occur. Additionally, having an initial hull appraisal done when starting a new insurance relationship, can be very beneficial

Chip

The fact is that you simply do not get it and probably never will. You are so good at your salesman crap that you yourself believe it. Your lively hood depends on you believing your own crap.

If I am buying a plane I would rather the pre buy and work get done by a major shop as long as I am not paying the bill. The plane that had $400k or work down out of a pre buy will in general be better off. Problem is that $400k was not all necessary and the seller gets ripped off. And even if it needed all that work it’s possible a smaller shop could have done it for way less and still did a good job.

If I am selling a plane no way I agree to an open check book with a pre buy form a big shop. That’s crazy. It’s almost guaranteed I will get ripped off.

So for you as a buyers rep you do what’s best for the buyer regardless of how it screws the seller. In my opinion that’s sleezy and wrong. Now add to that the fact that you who are not the one paying any bills but are seen as the returning “customer” it adds the possibility of kickbacks or favors for bringing in so much profitable business.

Bottom line is in your work the winners are the shop, buyer, and you. All at the expense of the seller. I don’t like it and in turn don’t like people like you that do this.

I have been in my business for 35 years. In the last 4 years I have seen more kickbacks and sleezy deals than ever. It’s a cultural shift for sure. I am losing jobs because I won’t pay off the gate keepers. My competition has no problem doing it and even when they get caught it’s no big deal to them. Unbelievable. My “competition” is charging the client 20-30% more to fund all the kickbacks. The loser is the client just like the loser in your world is the seller.

You are threatened by Mike C because he has nothing to gain and is brutally honest and open. That scares you as it challenges your business model. Then you want to attack him and act like he is the problem?

IMO every time you get in these debates with Mike C it makes you look worse.

Mike

Michael,

Everything you accuse me of is common in our industry.

Do big shops charge more?

Yes, but it’s probably 10% - 20%, not double. Everyone understands this.

Beware of anyone who claims they are always getting screwed, they’re usually the ones doing the screwing.

Sellers aren’t scared of a good shop, they trust good shops, large, medium or small. What they won’t do is take their airplane to a shop that is an unknown.

For what it is worth, in 9 years of representing buyers I have never had a King Air or Citation produce a $400k bill at prebuy.

If I put sellers in positions where they got screwed, that would hinder my ability to buy airplanes in the future.

I would point out that we have clients and sellers on Beechtalk, none of them have anything bad to say, it’s just you and Mike and a couple of others who like Mike and as a result dislike me.

My company isn’t perfect, I’m not perfect… the irony is I started it to protect people like you. It’s funny, you never rail about brokers, just the guy representing aircraft buyers.

On the subject of kickbacks, that does happen, but we do not do that. I have never taken a single commission from any maintenance facility. Our Steven’s sales guy did give me a TAG watch years ago, but considering how much business we have done with them $1000 watch would be laughable.

I’ll be glad to let any of our clients, present, past or future come to our office and peruse my QuickBooks, bank accounts, whatever. We have zero to hide.

I actually appreciate you bringing this issue to light, our industry needs some work. You’re just barking at the wrong tree.