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26 Nov 2025, 00:02 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 08 May 2019, 13:14 
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Many are back up. I know I am and many others I know as well. The response has been quick and semi painless.

That’s great news. I felt from the outset that this would be quick and easy fix and that some of the reactions were overdone.

For reasons I don’t fully understand more than a few pilots have been very vocal in their criticism of the Cirrus Vision Jet.

If Cirrus keeps taking care of business it seems the VJ will work out well for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 07:01 
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I am failing to see the argument. you guys want to keep flying with 6-pack avionics?

NXi is a great example. although expensive, Garmin gave owners the option to retrofit their G1000 screens and processors with new. new, HD screens, better processors. that's awesome. how is that not support for a fully-integrated panel?


I think inadvertently, you're making the 6-pack point.

The problem with the NXi upgrade is that Garmin *didn't* give owners of anything except a few models of King Air that have STC'd G1000's in them an upgrade path. That would be the ones that Garmin owns the STC for. ( I think it is like $350k to install a G1000 in an existing King Air - I could be wrong but I recall it being in that scale)

Those of us with factory glass panels, are pretty much stuck unless the type-certificate holder wants to certify it and provide an upgrade. No NXi for me. Heck, no firmware updates since 2014 for me. That's all up to Textron. Garmin certainly has produced newer firmware and fixed bugs and improved things in the various components of the G1000 in my plane. But unless Textron wants to certify it for release, I ain't gettin none of it.


I get it. The problem though, is with the manufacturer of the airframe, not with the avionics manufacturer. ie., I recently heard about a problem with Piper's G1000, whereby they were not providing a firmware upgrade that was causing some airport to not be displayed?

I guess I see it as being careful who you buy an airplane from, rather than which avionics are in it.
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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 14:36 
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Username Protected wrote:

I get it. The problem though, is with the manufacturer of the airframe, not with the avionics manufacturer. ie., I recently heard about a problem with Piper's G1000, whereby they were not providing a firmware upgrade that was causing some airport to not be displayed?

I guess I see it as being careful who you buy an airplane from, rather than which avionics are in it.



In the piston world, we have Mooney (hanging on by their toes and owned by a Chinese corporation), Piper, Textron who own Cessna, Beechcraft and the former Columbia Aircraft /TTx folded into Cessna, Diamond, and the big player in the piston world, Cirrus.

None have upgrade paths to NXi for existing G1000/Gx000 factory glass.

You can only get the NXi on brand new piston aircraft.

Cirrus and Diamond have been pretty good about firmware updates for the G1000. Not sure about Piper, so I won't knock them. The legacy Cessna have been getting some updates. The Columbia and Beech lines, well, not so many happy folks there.

I don't know about a "disappearing airport" issue. But there is a problem of approaches not being available for various reasons, such as the published approach lacking a descent angle. This affects many panel mount Garmin GPS systems, not just the G1000 systems.

However, aftermarket units get firmware straight from Garmin, so they get a timely fix. The G1000 systems have to go through the airframe manufacturer and so far, crickets from Textron.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 15:39 
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Username Protected wrote:

I get it. The problem though, is with the manufacturer of the airframe, not with the avionics manufacturer. ie., I recently heard about a problem with Piper's G1000, whereby they were not providing a firmware upgrade that was causing some airport to not be displayed?

I guess I see it as being careful who you buy an airplane from, rather than which avionics are in it.



In the piston world, we have Mooney (hanging on by their toes and owned by a Chinese corporation), Piper, Textron who own Cessna, Beechcraft and the former Columbia Aircraft /TTx folded into Cessna, Diamond, and the big player in the piston world, Cirrus.

None have upgrade paths to NXi for existing G1000/Gx000 factory glass.

You can only get the NXi on brand new piston aircraft.

Cirrus and Diamond have been pretty good about firmware updates for the G1000. Not sure about Piper, so I won't knock them. The legacy Cessna have been getting some updates. The Columbia and Beech lines, well, not so many happy folks there.

I don't know about a "disappearing airport" issue. But there is a problem of approaches not being available for various reasons, such as the published approach lacking a descent angle. This affects many panel mount Garmin GPS systems, not just the G1000 systems.

However, aftermarket units get firmware straight from Garmin, so they get a timely fix. The G1000 systems have to go through the airframe manufacturer and so far, crickets from Textron.


I'll respond to this with respect to the Piper PA46s. The above statement first isn't true, the airports appear it's that some approaches will not appear.

The "legacy" G1000 air frames (circa 2015) are stuck at GDU Software rev12.xx. They include the G1000 Matrix, Mirage and Meridian versions of the PA-46.

The way the updates for this TC'd software work, Garmin creates an update and the manufactures choose which features/updates they want to roll into their next software revisions. Garmin also marks changes with a severity level (e.g. minor/major). Major changes require flight testing by the manufacturer before integration.

GDU software revision 13.xx was a major code alignment effort to create a common code base with Garmin's other products and as such the entire update was marked major by Garmin. For a manufacturer to roll it out they'd need to re-certify the entire avionics suite in the airframe and would involve a non-trivial flight test program.

In the mean time there was an effort by the FAA to correct some terrain issues via the Instrument Procedures Group back in 2012 and it has continued through the years:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... 01-301.pdf

This resulted in some approaches getting a VDA = 0.00 degrees which is a valid value under ARINC 424. Garmin's GDU prior to rev 15.xx could not handle that value and would not show the approaches. Garmin issued a Service Advisory 1372 and provides a lists these airports:
https://avdb.garmin.com/docs/garmin_dat ... RO_DESCENT

Last count I made it involved 154 approaches.

The solution from Garmin was available in Rev 15.xx which fixes the problem; however since Rev 13.xx was marked major it block several manufactures. In addition, Rev 15.xx is the last update Garmin will provide for the G1000 avionics suite.

Piper then created the "M-Class" airframes (M350 and M500) with this newer G1000 software, but in doing so they also added several new features. For example the M-Class G1000 handles the pressurization control. In implementing these changes resulted in different hardware and rewiring making it impossible to back propagate this configuration to the legacy G1000 airframes.

To solve this problem, Piper and Garmin are actively working on an NXi STC for both the G1000 (pre-NXi) M-Class airframes first and then the legacy G1000 aircraft to upgrade these airframes to the G1000 NXi. The STC has been in progress since Q1-2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 16:30 
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The main OEM's that are still producing aircraft seem to be supporting the legacy aircraft to Nxi upgrades. The ones that aren't supporting that have with sufficient numbers in the legacy fleet, Garmin seems to be stepping in with an upgrade path STC. I would worry more about the OEM's ability to stay in business. Companies like Cirrus, Piper, Socata that have a long history and track record of taking care of their owner customers, I would not worry about upgrade paths for glass panels. Companies that do not seem to be as interested in selling planes in the future, have low copy numbers, I would be more concerned. Even a 2005 G1000 beats a 6-pack though ;)

Anyway, as mentioned above, Piper is going the route of going with an Nxi STC. That brings the software and hardware into 2020. Otherwise they would have to keep adding bandaids to overtaxed processors, and timing out boxes of the various G1000 iterations in the fleet. This is the better solution. Not everyone is happy with that solution, but they wouldn't be happy with the results of an OEM trying to support multiple hardware and software solutions with all the later and greater options.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 17:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
The main OEM's that are still producing aircraft seem to be supporting the legacy aircraft to Nxi upgrades. The ones that aren't supporting that have with sufficient numbers in the legacy fleet, Garmin seems to be stepping in with an upgrade path STC.


That's not what I'm seeing at all in the piston market. I'm seeing quite a reluctance to do so for piston aircraft. Turbine and jet is a different story. But there's quite a lot more money involved there.

I figure the per-unit cost at $50,000 to $60,000 to update to NXi, and that's if they're already at WAAS.

I have a non-WAAS G1000 (from 2007) and just the parts kit to upgrade it to WAAS is now over $41,000. Add 16 hours of labor to that and we're pushing $50K out the door, just to get to WAAS with exactly the same firmware levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 17:51 
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According to AOPA, the FAA and Garmin are working on a solution for the approaches where Garmin will stop screening out the approaches without a published VDA. This means that in some future navdata update, we may see these return and no G1000 software update will be required.

It can't come soon enough as we are missing a primary and only available RNAV approach that is typically used in poor weather at our home airport.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 18:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
To solve this problem, Piper and Garmin are actively working on an NXi STC for both the G1000 (pre-NXi) M-Class airframes first and then the legacy G1000 aircraft to upgrade these airframes to the G1000 NXi. The STC has been in progress since Q1-2019.


Do you have a source for that information?

This would be the only confirmed program for NXi retrofit into any piston aircraft that I've found.

Does this also apply to the rest of their existing piston G1000 fleet, such as Seneca V, Seminole, Archer, etc?


Yes, my source is Piper and Garmin through independent and direct communications with key personnel. I'm on the MMOPA BoD and I'm keeping my nose in the middle of this issue. Why else would a 2nd class 6-pack driving Malibu owner know so much about this subject?

I do not know about the rest of the Piper fleet. I'm going to call Piper this week or next and I'll make it a point to ask and report back what I know in a new thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision Jet Grounded?
PostPosted: 09 May 2019, 20:30 
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Ryan,

Very interesting to learn about the major/minor aspect.

Thank you,

Tim


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