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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 12:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
How would this work in practice?

Do I request (say) FL300, and somehow before I get there atc says “sorry, your ASE is too large today, maintain FL280”? Or do I ask atc “is my altimeter error acceptable today so that I can go to FL300” before I ask for such an altitude? What equipment suffix would I file? Can I file FL300 if I don’t know whether with today’s conditions I will be able to get it? If I cross a center boundary might their equipment be just different enough that one would allow me but one would boot me out of RVSM space?

While I like the theory, and I can see the change in the equipment rule language you are pointing out, it sure could use some FAA clarification to become practical.

I’d love for someone (else) to be the guinea pig. ;)



Seem to me the easiest way to be:

ME: Center N850VT, level FL280

ATC: N850VT, OAKLAND, we show you at FL27.7

ME: Roger Center correcting altimeter to FL27.7

ATC: Climb and maintain FL280

ME: Climb and maintain FL280, N850VT


But then I am a very simple man so this might be too practical.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 12:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
But then I am a very simple man so this might be too practical.

I think that's basically how it would work in practice.

Next step: have the FAA data link your true altitude back to the plane. Then you can see what your real time ASE is and adjust.

There are a whole lot of things ADS-B enables, this is just the start.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 13:02 
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Joined: 09/04/09
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Location: Doylestown, PA (KDYL)
Aircraft: 1979 Baron 58P
Username Protected wrote:
How would this work in practice?

Do I request (say) FL300, and somehow before I get there atc says “sorry, your ASE is too large today, maintain FL280”? Or do I ask atc “is my altimeter error acceptable today so that I can go to FL300” before I ask for such an altitude? What equipment suffix would I file? Can I file FL300 if I don’t know whether with today’s conditions I will be able to get it? If I cross a center boundary might their equipment be just different enough that one would allow me but one would boot me out of RVSM space?

While I like the theory, and I can see the change in the equipment rule language you are pointing out, it sure could use some FAA clarification to become practical.

I’d love for someone (else) to be the guinea pig. ;)



Seem to me the easiest way to be:

ME: Center N850VT, level FL280

ATC: N850VT, OAKLAND, we show you at FL27.7

ME: Roger Center correcting altimeter to FL27.7

ATC: Climb and maintain FL280

ME: Climb and maintain FL280, N850VT


But then I am a very simple man so this might be too practical.

The problem with that approach is that if your error is caused by static port position, or other static source error, then all the altimeters, air data computers and encoders would all see the same error. ATC only knows your altitude by what the encoder says.
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Rick Witt
Doylestown, PA
& Destin, FL


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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 15:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
The problem with that approach is that if your error is caused by static port position, or other static source error, then all the altimeters, air data computers and encoders would all see the same error. ATC only knows your altitude by what the encoder says.

Not any more.

That's the whole point of this exercise.

With geometric altitude reported by GPS via ADS-B, ATC can now know your real baro altitude EVEN IF your static system is messed up.

How? By converting GPS altitude to baro altitude in FAA computers.

So ATC can tell, in real time, if your mode C altitude and your true baro altitude are mismatched.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 15:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
The problem with that approach is that if your error is caused by static port position, or other static source error, then all the altimeters, air data computers and encoders would all see the same error. ATC only knows your altitude by what the encoder says.

Not any more.

That's the whole point of this exercise.

With geometric altitude reported by GPS via ADS-B, ATC can now know your real baro altitude EVEN IF your static system is messed up.

How? By converting GPS altitude to baro altitude in FAA computers.

So ATC can tell, in real time, if your mode C altitude and your true baro altitude are mismatched.

Mike C.

Thanks for the clarification :cheers:
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Doylestown, PA
& Destin, FL


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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 19:19 
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Joined: 11/08/12
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Location: Live in San Carlos, CA - based Hayward, CA KHWD
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Username Protected wrote:
With geometric altitude reported by GPS via ADS-B, ATC can now know your real baro altitude EVEN IF your static system is messed up.

How? By converting GPS altitude to baro altitude in FAA computers.

So ATC can tell, in real time, if your mode C altitude and your true baro altitude are mismatched.

Which brings me back to a question I've asked a number of times, namely - why don't we just switch everyone to GPS altitude? Way more accurate, consistent across weather conditions, and reliable.

Then there would be no reason for ATC to data link your own baro altitude back to you. Just read your own GPS altitude and be done.

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-Jon C.


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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Which brings me back to a question I've asked a number of times, namely - why don't we just switch everyone to GPS altitude? Way more accurate, consistent across weather conditions, and reliable.

Not the way aviation evolved.

Not every plane has GPS.

You have to have a backup to GPS.

Baro is reliable as a system, even if a single plane fails occasionally.

GPS denied happens all the time. GPS is NOT more reliable from a system perspective due to that fact alone.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:12 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Company: RNP Aviation Services
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:

Seem to me the easiest way to be:

ME: Center N850VT, level FL280

ATC: N850VT, OAKLAND, we show you at FL27.7

ME: Roger Center correcting altimeter to FL27.7

ATC: Climb and maintain FL280

ME: Climb and maintain FL280, N850VT


But then I am a very simple man so this might be too practical.

The problem with that approach is that if your error is caused by static port position, or other static source error, then all the altimeters, air data computers and encoders would all see the same error. ATC only knows your altitude by what the encoder says.


The other problem is, you just admitted to a pilot deviation by being 300' off your assigned altitude on a recorded party line....

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
The other problem is, you just admitted to a pilot deviation by being 300' off your assigned altitude on a recorded party line....

I hear that so often that I conclude nearly no one gets busted for it unless it causes a deal, which it rarely does.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 00:53 
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Location: Fresno, CA (KFCH)
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>>>The other problem is, you just admitted to a pilot deviation by being 300' off your assigned altitude on a recorded party line....<<<

Well not if this were the accepted practice under new RVSM rules.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 09:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
>>>The other problem is, you just admitted to a pilot deviation by being 300' off your assigned altitude on a recorded party line....<<<

Well not if this were the accepted practice under new RVSM rules.


Good luck with that!


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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 09:26 
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Location: Stamping Ground, Ky
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Username Protected wrote:
The problem with that approach is that if your error is caused by static port position, or other static source error, then all the altimeters, air data computers and encoders would all see the same error. ATC only knows your altitude by what the encoder says.

Not any more.

That's the whole point of this exercise.

With geometric altitude reported by GPS via ADS-B, ATC can now know your real baro altitude EVEN IF your static system is messed up.

How? By converting GPS altitude to baro altitude in FAA computers.

So ATC can tell, in real time, if your mode C altitude and your true baro altitude are mismatched.

Mike C.

Just curious, but isn’t gps altitude HAE (height above ellipsoid)? Do FAA computers convert HAE to pressure altitude? That seems to allow room for some error, given the number of variables involved in a PA reading. Flying a constant PA doesn’t necessarily keep you at a constant GPS altitude.

Last edited on 09 Jan 2019, 09:35, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 09:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just curious, but isn’t gps altitude HAE?

Yes. I think WGS84 is the standard being used.

Quote:
Do FAA computers convert HAE to pressure altitude?

Yes. That's the magic part.

Quote:
That seems to allow room for some error, given the number of variables involved in a PA reading. Flying a constant PA doesn’t necessarily keep you at a constant GPS altitude.

No, it doesn't. The FAA computers are generating the conversion function for every piece of sky.

Exactly how they do this isn't detailed that I can find, but my assumption is that they do this by observing all the aircraft flying through the sky and generating a statistical model of the PA to HAE conversion. In some sense, it doesn't matter what the exact conversion is, it matters mostly that the group of aircraft in that part of the sky stay apart.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 09:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just curious, but isn’t gps altitude HAE?

Yes. I think WGS84 is the standard being used.

Quote:
Do FAA computers convert HAE to pressure altitude?

Yes. That's the magic part.

Quote:
That seems to allow room for some error, given the number of variables involved in a PA reading. Flying a constant PA doesn’t necessarily keep you at a constant GPS altitude.

No, it doesn't. The FAA computers are generating the conversion function for every piece of sky.

Exactly how they do this isn't detailed that I can find, but my assumption is that they do this by observing all the aircraft flying through the sky and generating a statistical model of the PA to HAE conversion. In some sense, it doesn't matter what the exact conversion is, it matters mostly that the group of aircraft in that part of the sky stay apart.

Mike C.

Interesting. I was thinking of the cold weather baro conversions we use on some approaches, and how large the altimetry errors are. Correlating gps altitude with PA seems like it would have the opportunity for a fair amount of difference. When push comes to shove on enforcement it seems like it could get interesting.
At work, watching the differences between 3 altimeters at cruise (two corrected, which stay pretty close, and one uncorrected, which can be way off) is entertaining.

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 Post subject: Re: RVSM and ADSB
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 11:30 
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Location: Doylestown, PA (KDYL)
Aircraft: 1979 Baron 58P
Is there a way to determine our ASE when operating in the Flight Levels?
I can get my GPS altitude from my GTN750 but without knowing the correction factor it has no relevance.

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Doylestown, PA
& Destin, FL


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