29 Nov 2025, 10:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet?  Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 17:21 |
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Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
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Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: But there's a reason the used Mustang is a lot cheaper than a used Pilatus. Mustang is not in demand for 135 which keep prices up on the PC12.
I’m sure that’s part of it. I’m not running a 135 and I wouldn’t trade in my $3mm Pilatus for a $1.5mm mustang. P300 or larger is the only direction I’ll go. .
I have a lot of PC12 owner friends. None are trading to jets.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 18:23 |
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5193
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Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: I have a lot of PC12 owner friends. None are trading to jets. PC12 does a different mission.
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 18:37 |
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Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
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Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: I have a lot of PC12 owner friends. None are trading to jets. PC12 does a different mission.
My mission is point A to point B as quickly as possible.
I'm starting to believe jet owners mission is "noodling through the intricacies of owning a jet" at the expense of "point A to point B as quickly as possible". 
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 18:43 |
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Joined: 12/29/12
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: We landed with just over 500 lbs   Ha, I thought the same thing. 500 lbs in a jet doesn¨t sound like much. Especially going into a crowded airspace like Houston. Rgs, Patrick
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 20:15 |
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Joined: 01/29/09
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Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: Ha, I thought the same thing. 500 lbs in a jet doesn¨t sound like much. Especially going into a crowded airspace like Houston. I don't know their route, but if it was over the Gulf..... 
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Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 20:57 |
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
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Username Protected wrote: My mission is point A to point B as quickly as possible. I'm starting to believe jet owners mission is "noodling through the intricacies of owning a jet" at the expense of "point A to point B as quickly as possible". Great range is the best speed mod. 
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 22:03 |
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Username Protected wrote: I'm starting to believe jet owners mission is "noodling through the intricacies of owning a jet" at the expense of "point A to point B as quickly as possible". Yeah but you aren't supposed to say that in mixed company.  What were the airports you were flying to and from?
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Education cuts, don't heal.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 29 Oct 2018, 22:06 |
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Username Protected wrote:
Long trip ? I know little about the 20 but am just curious as to the distance rqd. VMC doesn't "require" a climb gradient (depending on airport it may not be smart), IMC does if 135 but this sounds like 91.
Also, depending on if they use APG then there may be alternate DP's that can be used in OEI but may not be able to be filed.
Interesting scenario, I would have thought a 20 would have done this in all but edge cases.
1000NM trip. VMC. 8000' altitude but 13K' runway. Plenty of flat space to maneuver. Not like leaving Aspen. High altitude airport but the mountains/rising terrain were far far off. Part 91 but 2 "pro pilots" up front. Yes, this flight has me wanting to keep my Pilatus. We could've flown Commercial faster.... much faster.
I have over 4000 hours in Falcon 20's, 20-30 years ago. You have to remember they were one of the first business jets, first flight May 4th, 1963. They have good runway performance compared to most of the other business jets of that era. The 20 is underpowered with the GE engines, the ones that have Garretts are better.
With GE engines and at 8,000 foot elevation going 1000nm you are probably going to need to do a 0 flap takeoff to meet Part 25 climb requirements, Vr probably 150-155K. If it was up near 80 degrees where you departed, at 8000 elevation, the airplane can get weight limited by max tire speed and runway required up around 10,000 feet. 10,000 feet of runway is as high as the charts go if I remember right.
You can have your Pilatus I will keep flying multi turbines for when one engine quits. It is a good thing we all don't like the same things, or they would be even more expensive.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 30 Oct 2018, 07:41 |
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Joined: 10/05/11
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Company: Hausch LLC, rep. Power/mation
Location: Milwaukee, WI (KMKE)
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Username Protected wrote: I'm starting to believe jet owners mission is "noodling through the intricacies of owning a jet" at the expense of "point A to point B as quickly as possible". "Because it's a jet" is probably a mission criteria, too. You've even admitted jet lust yourself. Now, take away the fact you are a pilot and analytical about flying and you'd have scratched that jet itch already. We are all irrational in our own ways, I guess. 
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 30 Oct 2018, 08:36 |
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Joined: 01/29/08
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Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
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Yes I agree with that explanation. No doubt I want to scratch it and probably will. Always love debating how much it’s gonna cost me.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 30 Oct 2018, 11:25 |
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Joined: 05/30/17
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Yes, it was over the Gulf …  Perhaps my jet ignorance was bliss! Maybe the pilot wearing a snorkel and a life vest on the descent should have clued me in ... *laughing* And it was something like 530-540 lbs as we landed in the HondaJet. We were vectored in from the east/southeast and around the west side of the Bravo to Houston Executive. However, he seemed completely fine with the FOD numbers the whole way …
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 30 Oct 2018, 14:40 |
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Joined: 12/09/13
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Location: KICT/KFFZ/KLAS
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Username Protected wrote: "500 fpm climb in the teens" are you serious? I'm losing interest real quick. What's the limitation on the climb? Im on a 1000nm trip in a friends 2 pilot jet. I offered to fly the Pilatus but they wanted to take the jet. I’m sitting in the back. We’re too heavy to take on enough fuel to fly back home non stop (we don’t have the climb numbers to out climb terrain). So now we have to stop for fuel halfway back. Also, the long runway at the home airport is closed for MX so we need to land at the airport across town and Uber home. We should’ve take the Pilatus. Would’ve made it non stop both ways. At this point we should’ve just flown commercial.
If the aircraft is on a 135 operating certificate, there are often stipulations that you must meet all 135 weather restrictions/OEI climb gradients even when operating the aircraft part-91. I fly under a certificate right now with those rules. Combine that with early (pre-1990) jets that often had wonky performance, which can create real headaches.
That being said, I only have 1500~hrs of single engine time and i've already experienced a catastrophic engine failure. I'll take two every time.
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Post subject: Re: Phenom 100E , Cessna M2 or Hondajet? Posted: 30 Oct 2018, 16:18 |
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Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 26338
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Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
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Username Protected wrote: That being said, I only have 1500~hrs of single engine time and i've already experienced a catastrophic engine failure. I'll take two every time. I fly a Pilatus..... It has it's own stats separate from "singles". Thanks for the info on the 135 stuff.
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