BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 22:00

Username Protected wrote:

What pisses me off about Jack's bill is the things like .5 labor and $47 to tighten a screw. YGBSM. I'd have a talk to the owner of that shop... it took more time to write that up than to do it.

Exactly WTF I was fixing to type. Just be involved in ur maintenance gee wizz ur $20 ur self to death.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 22:03

Jack I agree, my costs are averaged out over 12 years and 1600 hours. I do agree someone does not need the TL gear, but it sure is nice. The TL gear is 90 pounds heavier because it is built very strong and I have tested that fact "accidentally" one time.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 22:39

Username Protected wrote:

They are professionals: they do exceptional work, they produce excellent paper work, they perform work on time and they maintain great communication. You never get billed for a penny more you've agreed to. Like I said, they are professionals and expect to be treated as such. So yes, 0.5 hour to to deal with some little screw, they did, they documented, they billed.

I gather your inference Rick and agree in principle... but... but... come on dude. See screw is loose, write up loose screw, get approval from owner for loose screw, tighten screw, bill .5 hrs for loose screw. seriously? At some point I'd be like, 'well dude! just freakin tighten the damn screw'... how about add an hour to the total bill and put under "handle miscellaneous exceedingly obvious stuff such as screw tightening!"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 22:49

[youtube]https://youtu.be/Bu-A8YfC4w0[/youtube]

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 22:52

Username Protected wrote:

They are professionals: they do exceptional work, they produce excellent paper work, they perform work on time and they maintain great communication. You never get billed for a penny more you've agreed to. Like I said, they are professionals and expect to be treated as such. So yes, 0.5 hour to to deal with some little screw, they did, they documented, they billed.

I gather your inference Rick and agree in principle... but... but... come on dude. See screw is loose, write up loose screw, get approval from owner for loose screw, tighten screw, bill .5 hrs for loose screw. seriously? At some point I'd be like, 'well dude! just freakin tighten the damn screw'... how about add an hour to the total bill and put under "handle miscellaneous exceedingly obvious stuff such as screw tightening!"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Aug 2017, 23:13

You splitten hairs. Do you guys read prior posts? A 421 340 is
Expensive. Buy a turbine its a lot more.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 00:37

Username Protected wrote:

This is what impresses me about beechtalk.

I too am interested in buying a twin Cessna so I joined the twin Cessna group. I check it every other day or so and little has changed.

And yet in the Brand X forum of beechtalk you have 4 pages of replies to a question that was posted a little over 24 hours ago.

Yeah, the TTCF has been a complete let down for me. I won't be renewing after my year expires. I spent money for their "Rig it right" Video and booklet an what I received was laughable. Beechtalk has, by far, the best and most informed membership for BrandX aircraft. :cheers:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 06:55

Quote:

They are professionals: they do exceptional work, they produce excellent paper work, they perform work on time and they maintain great communication. You never get billed for a penny more you've agreed to. Like I said, they are professionals and expect to be treated as such. So yes, 0.5 hour to to deal with some little screw, they did, they documented, they billed. Quality, cheap, on time: pick two. I've bought planes by people that pick cheap and on time. Their jaw always dropped when I presented a prebuy report worth 20% of the asking price and I asked for another 10% for my troubles.

Guys like yourself who like to be involved in their own maintenance don't understand people who appreciate quality and on time. You don't mind quality cheap but you don't get on time when you get involved in your own maintenance. You spending time sourcing parts, making decisions, etc. It always delays the final product. When my living depended on flying 3 days a week on tight schedule, all I cared about was quality and on time: annual starts on Monday, get finished by next Monday. I didn't care about overnight charges for shipping. Shops like the one above can deliver that. You cannot do that on the cheap.

So because I'm involved in my aircraft maintenance I don't understand quality? Or Time?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 09:38

Username Protected wrote:

Quote:

They are professionals: they do exceptional work, they produce excellent paper work, they perform work on time and they maintain great communication. You never get billed for a penny more you've agreed to. Like I said, they are professionals and expect to be treated as such. So yes, 0.5 hour to to deal with some little screw, they did, they documented, they billed. Quality, cheap, on time: pick two. I've bought planes by people that pick cheap and on time. Their jaw always dropped when I presented a prebuy report worth 20% of the asking price and I asked for another 10% for my troubles.

Guys like yourself who like to be involved in their own maintenance don't understand people who appreciate quality and on time. You don't mind quality cheap but you don't get on time when you get involved in your own maintenance. You spending time sourcing parts, making decisions, etc. It always delays the final product. When my living depended on flying 3 days a week on tight schedule, all I cared about was quality and on time: annual starts on Monday, get finished by next Monday. I didn't care about overnight charges for shipping. Shops like the one above can deliver that. You cannot do that on the cheap.

So because I'm involved in my aircraft maintenance I don't understand quality? Or Time?

You understand quality, but no, clearly you don't understand time if you're going to be dickering with a shop over half an hour here and half an hour there. Guess which customers get priority when their aircraft is AOG? The ones that pay invoices as issued, on time and don't bother and break the normal part sourcing routines trying to save $50 on a battery being shipped from Timbuktu then forcing manual entries in the accounting software as opposed to a weekly data dump import from their usual supplier. Where you see a rip off, others see convenience. Convenience costs extra.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 10:01

Without making this a pissing contest, it be informative to have cost estimates from owners that are involved in their own maintenance (as most airplane owners are).

Thus far, this thread gives the impression these birds are unusually expensive to maintain. However, it's clear now those reporting consistent high 5 figure maintenance costs simply toss the keys to expensive shops and walk away. That's certainly one way to maintain a plane. But by far not the most common or optimal.

It seems to me that absent major big ticket items (engine/prop OH, window replacement, engine beams, etc) there is no reason to have 5 figure maintenance bills as far as the eyes can see.

So can Mr Stetson and other pressurized twin drivers chime in?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 10:07

Wow Rick!!! I love your attitude. I couldn't agree more. :thumbup:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 10:20

This has been an interesting thread.
Rick, do you currently own or have previously owned a C414A ? You had some good information regarding the performance on this aircraft. Is there a particular model year you liked better? Did you have any experience with the 414B models with the Ram upgrades? Any comments regarding the 414A spar issues?
Are any 340/414/421 owners having issues getting parts?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 10:22

Username Protected wrote:

However, it's clear now those reporting consistent high 5 figure maintenance costs simply toss the keys to expensive shops and walk away.

It seems to me that absent major big ticket items (engine/prop OH, window replacement, engine beams, etc) there is no reason to have 5 figure maintenance bills as far as the eyes can see.

If you spend high five figures on maintenance year after year ... yes, you'd be better off in a turboprop.

But five figure maintenance bills as far as the eye can see ... yep, that's easily what it takes to maintain a pressurized piston twin in steady state indefinitely. Figure a 421 would cost something on the order of 1.5 million new today (probably more like $2). $10,000 = 0.7% of that cost. Yeah, keeping a 421 up is gonna cost every bit of $10K a year for non-overhaul maintenance a year. Not high five figures, but low five figures for sure.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 10:58

I replace or repair things "before they fail".
I have certain items on a time schedule, Alternators 500 hours, Tach drives 500 hours, Battery every two years, exhaust inspection every oil change at 35 hours, starters every 500 hours ETC.

This type of scheduled MX will increase your operating cost, but it also prevents cancellation of trips and AOG situations.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Aug 2017, 11:46

Username Protected wrote:

However, it's clear now those reporting consistent high 5 figure maintenance costs simply toss the keys to expensive shops and walk away. That's certainly one way to maintain a plane. But by far not the most common or optimal.

Hm. I read this thread and didn't come away with that opinion. It's certainly not "clear" to me that owners who have more expensive maintenance bills simply toss the keys.

I happen to be based at a field where one of the premier twin Cessna shops is located. I have a great relationship with them, they are very communicative, and damn convenient. They aren't cheap however.

I've never gone a year with the 421 without reasonably high maintenance, and while I haven't gone back this morning to look I'm around $30k-40k a year or so (maybe higher - need to look) for 150-180 hours. I definitely do not turn my own wrenches. Not fun for me, and I don't have the time. I'd rather be flying than fixing.

Could I get my work done somewhere else cheaper? Of course. I know that, but I definitely don't "throw the keys" and I'm very involved in maintenance.

I also know for a fact that my 421 is cheaper to maintain and operate than a comparable C90. Anecdotally, it's cheaper than a comparable TBM as well. Could I operate a meridian cheaper? Perhaps, but it won't do my mission. The MU2 certainly has a reputation as being inexpensive to operate.

Robert

Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?