No, aircraft insurance pays your stated hull value in a total loss.

While there is no guarantee as to what future pricing will be, what has the escalation been over the previous years? At the low end it probably is not better than inflation. What would be the reasonably bad but expected scenario? 7%?

It would seem reasonable that you might be as high as $200 per side for that 5th year, and as you noted there seems to be some provision for buying into more hours at the earlier rate.

I guess there might be a black swan financial crisis that drives it higher, and you would need to apply whatever sensitivity to the analysis that fits for you. Pick your anticipated worst case and run the numbers.

Williams isn't playing games. CZI and MPI is a standard term that applies to other jet engines. It isn't something they made up. The 731s have it and they are used on a bunch of business jets.

http://www.tfe731experts.com/TFE731-Mai ... -Intervals

Aircraft with 731s.
Aero L-139 (prototype only)
AIDC AT-3
Boeing Skyfox
British Aerospace BAe 125 Series 700
CASA C-101
Cessna Citation III/VI/VII
Dassault Falcon 10
Dassault Falcon 20 (retrofit)
Dassault Falcon 50
Dassault Falcon 900
FMA IA 63 Pampa
Gulfstream G100/G150/C-38 Courier (formerly IAI 1125 Astra SPX)
Hawker 800/850XP/900XP
Hongdu JL-8
IAI Westwind
Learjet 31
Learjet 35/C-21
Learjet 40
Learjet 45
Learjet 55
Learjet 70
Lockheed JetStar/Jetstar II
North American Sabreliner (NA-465 model)
Textron AirLand Scorpion

Well that's not because Mike hasn't been making this point repeatedly. He has. Another recent thread someone challenged him on his facts and research on this issue. Here's his answer.

This thread has been interesting but is quickly deteriorating into a couple of guy's urinating into the jet wash.

Thanks Mike.

Yes, because after you put $600K into going back on program (using the example airplane in original post), you will increase your insured hull value with the underwriter by about that amount. The market value of the aircraft is increased.

If you pay up to be on program and don't increase the hull value, you are underinsured.

If you buy an airplane already on program, then the market value reflects that and thus you set the hull value based on that.

In every case, if you are on program, you are paying premiums to cover the engine program value to restore your engines to zero time.

The weird part is that the airplane itself is exactly the same before and after. The value you are insuring is partly a promise from Williams and not something that is intrinsically valuable about the airplane itself. If the plane is a loss, Williams is released from their promise and you don't get anything from them, so you have to get it from the insurance company.

Mike C.

If your point is that the airplane on program is a better deal, then that is always the case because Williams deliberately makes it so by manipulating the pricing of off program engine maintenance.

Mike C.

That is an excellent question.

The best source would be an owner who has owned the particular model engine you are interested in and have them report their hourly cost history.

Allen has owned his CJ2+ for a while, it has an FJ44-3A, just like the Sierra conversion I had priced, and would be on the program. So he would be an excellent source of this information if he is willing to share his cost history with us.


That's the rub. At what point does it become uneconomical to stay on the program? And what does that mean for payments today that will be, in some sense, abandoned if you go off program?

Past history can only tell you so much, at any time in the future, the philosophy around the pricing scheme could change and you have really no leverage.

Mike C.

If your point is that the airplane on program is a better deal, then that is always the case because Williams deliberately makes it so by manipulating the pricing of off program engine maintenance.

Mike C.

It's why I like the P&Ws. On our C90, there are always used engines available (-21s), so, one has choices. Lots of secondary parts and mechanics with engine experience. If having work done, one can go with or monitor someone doing work. If having them overhauled, you can hire an independent mechanic to monitor and tell some of the big guys that are liberal with saying you need to replace; no, no, it's within limits. Leave it in.
On the Citation II I leased last year, the owner had replaced his engines with used a few years ago rather than overhaul. JT15D-4s.
I like choices.

I manage a CJ3 that the company I work for bought new in 2008.

I took over the job last year and renewed our Pro Advantage contract which includes pro parts and TAP Elite.

At the time of renewal, aircraft had 900 hours total time, and our contract runs for 36 calendar months, or 1800 hours total time whichever occurs first;

It is based on a minimum of 150 hours per year and the rates are as follows.
Pro Parts runs 228.83 and tap elite is 142.15 per engine.

I personally think it is a good plan, but have no idea what the price will be next contract renewal, but I wouldn't want to own a CJ that wasn't on this plan. If the owner ever decide to sell or trade, it has preserved the value of their plane. Plus for me it takes a lot of the guess work out of maintenance costs. I know to almost the penny what the hourly operating cost will be for the next 3 years with no surprises.

Pro Parts has well paid for itself. It covers essentially everything including avionics, brakes, tires and batteries. Just in the last year I have had to replace some Pro Line avionics and the battery and just those items would have been over 45,000 dollars if I wasn't on the plan.

Hope this information was helpful.

Thanks David - I'd appreciate if you could help educate this piston guy... is your (bosses) total cost to own/fly the CJ3 about $55k a year ($370x150 hours) + gas, insurance, and hangar?

Is there anything NOT covered by the plans?

Heck, I've had years with the 421 that cost me more then $55k! (Cue Mike saying how cheap he runs his MU2

Robert

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that just put you in a negative balance for the plan? At some point he'll end up paying that $45,000 back - either by time on the plan or when he goes to sell the airplane or renew the plan?

Thanks,

Chip-

142 X 2+228=512/hr

Operating -42 pt6 is roughly $111/hr/engine. My overhauls were close to 700 and I'd guess the hots willl be 100 (for both). TBO is 3600. After the overhaul warranty runs out, I bear the risk if the engine craps out. I know the -10 Garretts are cheaper but from my perspective, the Williams program doesn't seem so bad. On a cost/nm basis, the FJ44s are cheaper than PT6s

Mike, you just need to fly a PT6 powered airplane for awhile, it will get you some perspective. All of you MU2 guys are spoiled.

Whoops. Missed the "per engine" part.

Robert