You are pretty close to the Cessna manual numbers.

Leaving 1000 lbs in the tanks for reserve, that gives 4800 lbs to burn.

MCT, ISA, FL450, MGTOW, Cessna chart says 1770 nm, 4:45 enroute.

LRC, ISA, FL450, 15,000 lbs at takeoff, Cessna chart says 1930 nm, 5:30 enroute.

Both numbers are zero wind. I'm sure there is some variation based on engine health as well.

Source: Model 560 Citation V Operating Manual, Serial 0001 to 0259, Revision 6. MCT is from figure 7-13 (sheet 11 of 11) and LRC is from Figure 7-15 (sheet 11 of 11).

One of my concerns with the 560 is that it might not do the trips I need to do, namely EVV to BFI, HIO, SJC missions which are all just a touch over 1600 nm. Add in any headwind and it might not make it non stop. If I am willing to make a stop, then a jet with lesser range would do, which opens up a lot more choices.

The plane that clearly does it is the S550 with Williams conversion. Not that many out there, so sort of rare. But it has ~2500 nm range with reserves in LRC, the benefit of having as much fuel as the 560 but with thrifty FJ44s, lighter weights, and shorter time to climb.

Mike C.

To determine fair market value we look at the airplanes sold over the last 6 months and use the comps to evaluate our subject aircraft.

We charge a retainer (covers expenses and travel) and a fee upon successful negotiation / closing. The total charge is $42k on a typical Citation V deal. On every single acquisition we have done so far, we have saved the buyer more than our fee.

We offer consultation services for a flat rate of $2500 for the first 90 days. We'll help them asses their mission, determine what type of aircraft, assist with obtaining financing, get them in touch with aviation and tax attorneys, guide them through setting up an LLC or Trust, etc.

Well, at least there is a choice, if limited. That's better than no choice at all.


You are not the first to imply that Williams runs their program like the mafia. Those not on the program will get shafted when they show up for HSI or OH. It is in Williams advantage to make examples of rogue owners.

There are Williams owners who are not on the program, however. They calculate the cost is too high. For a 5000 hour TBO on an FJ44, the price is running about $750K per engine. That has to be within reach of buying a new engine outright. The engine program cost increases are multiple times inflation as well, so the long term prospect is dire. I don't see any future where Williams lowers the pricing as they are addicted to printing money.

The fuel savings of the Williams is real, and it helps range, but the cost of the engine program negates that advantage. In many cases, especially lately, fuel costs are LESS than the engine program.

This has me looking at the JT15 airplanes more seriously. The thing I don't know is what are the expected HSI and OH costs for the JT15D-4, -5, etc. Airmotive seems to be a popular choice for that work.

Or the alternative is to buy a fairly young set of FJ44s and just never need to go to Williams for anything and accept the market value loss at the end being off program.

Maybe Honda produces a 3000 lbf engine and that is an option to replace JT15s. Now that would shake up the industry some.

Mike C.

And which place are you actively working? When I googled you to learn a bit more about you.. I found you with references at Gant, RidgeAire and JetAcq. Might be helpful to understand for anyone interested in hiring your company.

BTW - I totally remember that story in the national news about your daughter. Small world.

The numbers Cessna provided ....

Just because I quote something doesn't make it wrong. :-)


If you want to go fast. If you want to go far, then higher is better.

Cessna's numbers for the climb are:

Maximum climb profile: MGTOW, ISA, FL430 in 37 minutes, FL450 in 123 minutes (with step).

Mike C.

My company is Jet Acq, I worked for Gantt for a short time when we moved to Georgetown, great company! Jay Gantt (son of Johnny Gantt who founded Gantt Aviation over 40 years ago and a founding memeber of NARA) is a great guy and a friend. We talked a lot about how I could do full time acquisitions at Gantt but the reality is that to do it right it is very time consuming, very difficult to balance selling and buying... so it made more sense for me to do my own deal. At Jet Acquisitions we are not a listing broker, we stay focused on buying... though we occasionally help sell a client's airplane to make room for the aircraft they have hired us to acquire.

I worked for RidgeAire for several years, Bud Ridgley was another aviation sales pioneer. We laid him to rest a couple of weeks ago. I'm still heartbroken. At RidgeAire we purchased and refurbished King Airs, I probably learned more about airplanes working there than I had the previous ten years in the airplane business.

Both Gantt and RidgeAire are stocking dealers, I think I probably look at this industry a little different than most having been the "buyer" on so many occasions.

Yep, Baby Jessica will be 30 years old next week! I think that means her dad was 5 when she was born!!!!

Gant had a pristine Merlin IIIB that was sold to a metal dealer who later had it sold through JA in Chicago. I talked to Gant about it during my search and had the impression that they are a good outfit. Even though they dealt mostly King Airs while being in the heart of Merlin country.

Makes sense.

The seller knows the broker is trying to make the most money they can in the transaction, so the seller assumes they are being taken advantage of. Remember your comment about lingering reputations? That affects brokers, even the honest ones.

If the seller knows this is an offer from the buyer, then they see the deal on the table so the broker can't hide a bigger cut. Trust but verify.

In theory, it shouldn't matter, if you are willing to accept $X, you shouldn't care from whom. In reality, it does matter. Nobody wants to be a fool, and there is something satisfying about knowing who is buying your airplane.

Mike C.

Makes sense.

The seller knows the broker is trying to make the most money they can in the transaction, so the seller assumes they are being taken advantage of. Remember your comment about lingering reputations? That affects brokers, even the honest ones.

If the seller knows this is an offer from the buyer, then they see the deal on the table so the broker can't hide a bigger cut. Trust but verify.

In theory, it shouldn't matter, if you are willing to accept $X, you shouldn't care from whom. In reality, it does matter. Nobody wants to be a fool, and there is something satisfying about knowing who is buying your airplane.

Mike C.

I am really in the same boat as Mike. My missions are changing. I am picking up more west coast business trips. The planes I have been considering are the BE400 (with a stop), Lear 35A or Lear 60.

I keep going back to BE400 because I am already familiar and type rated, plus I have the advantage of being on the same field as Nextant/Constant. They probably have a pile of parts and engines. The Cleveland area probably has the largest pool of BE400 typed pilots than anywhere else due to Flight Options. I am even considering the straight 400. That keeps me away from the Proline package and the airplane is a better performer being lighter.

I haven't seriously considered the legacy Citations, because I never cared for the low wing loading. I am also typed in them. Nice flying airplanes with simple systems, but I hit my head on the ceiling too many times, which may explain my personality disorder...

The Lear 35A would certainly fit my mission profile, but comfort could be an issue on a 5 hour flight. The Lear 60 would be an awesome airplane, but BFL in the Summer could be an issue trying to get to the west coast with a load of fuel. Also less of a pilot pool and mx in my area.

The Premier was also on my radar, but the acquisition costs seem to have gone up quite a bit in the last 4 years or so.

Single pilot is of very little concern to me. I typically fly with another pilot and always when I have pax.

Just thinking out loud here.

I'm happy! This thread is getting back on point.

Mike had a great point about engine programs - where's the value if the engine program is so expensive that it negates the fuel savings?

Chip's opinion about a second pilot mirrors mine, I'm not so sure about this SP thing.

Mike also had a good point about the FMS in the ultra - I don't think it can be easily upgraded. The with the V, you can add a garmin 600 & 750 that I'm guessing it way better than the 90's technology FMS in the Ultra.

I have heard that the overhauls in the JT15's are getting unreasonable too. I've heard 600K/ea in some cases. If this is correct, that's nuts.....

I was hoping this thread would be about the Citation V and not a marketing platform for your services.


You are trying to sell me something.

Mike C.

I know firsthand of 96k hot section on an Ultra Engine. It was abnormal. Subtract 26k for normal. Also 1.5 mil + for overhauls on 2 Bravo engines. I was told 2 Ultra engines that needed a lot were 1.2.

Robert

I was hoping this thread would be about the Citation V and not a marketing platform for your services.


You are trying to sell me something.

Mike C.

The last JT15-5D overhauls I was involved in were over $400k per side... and that was for 2nd run engines at Hale... and three years ago... so it wouldn't surprize me to see $600k from Dallas or Pratt.