08 Jun 2025, 13:04 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 15:15 |
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Joined: 01/24/10 Posts: 7359 Post Likes: +5024 Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: I feel your pain as a former 421 owner. Those GTSIO's are so complex that we rarely could get 10-15 hrs. without some sort of engine maintenance. I hope you find the culprit soon. GTSO520's are very reliable if they are maintained well. I have 1200 hours on mine and never had a AOG.
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:13 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2526 Post Likes: +2078 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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On those induction leaks, the clamps were tight, no gap visible. After they fixed those I fired up to go for a test flight. Engine started and idled well, much better than previous flight. Played with it a while, all seemed good. Headed down the taxiway and right engine started to slowly surge again. Stopped and did a mag check at 1500 RPM. Engine died on right mag...completely died. On previous mag checks the right mag dropped a bit more than the left, but not horribly. Here are pics of the right mag guts... Now everybody gets a trophy...every guess was right. Fuel problem, air problem, and a spark problem, just for fun. UNBELIEVABLE
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_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:31 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Seriousness of your problems:
1. Mag 2. Crap in fuel lines 3. Induction leaks
I think the onset of your problem in flight was caused by the mag losing some gear teeth.
Probably good you approached the problem the way you did because if you looked at the mag first and fixed it the engine might have run ok but nor great. If you would have stopped then you wouldn't have opened up the injector lines and found the crap and the induction leaks.
Things have a way of working out right.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:45 |
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Joined: 10/14/14 Posts: 1775 Post Likes: +2008 Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
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Jack,
Nice find, how much time on the magnetos? May be a good motivation for the recommended 500 hour inspection of mags that few comply with.
Not sure if you considered the starter drive AD note inspection. It states any engine roughness that can not be corrected by manipulation of the controls would trigger the adapter inspection. Roughness may be a vague term and subject to perceptions by the operator. I do not particularly agree with this as we have replaced these starter adapters that have failed to meet the specification called out in the AD with brand new units from Continental that were right at minimum spec as received. The cost in not inconsequential either.
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:50 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2526 Post Likes: +2078 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: Seriousness of your problems:
1. Mag 2. Crap in fuel lines 3. Induction leaks
I think the onset of your problem in flight was caused by the mag losing some gear teeth.
Probably good you approached the problem the way you did because if you looked at the mag first and fixed it the engine might have run ok but nor great. If you would have stopped then you wouldn't have opened up the injector lines and found the crap and the induction leaks.
Things have a way of working out right. Yes, they do. Good points...likely we would have fought #2 & #3 for quite some time before finding the problem.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:54 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2526 Post Likes: +2078 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: There is an AD (or SB) requiring engine shut down with a GTSIO if you have vibration. Vibration can cause the viscous damper to overheat the fluid. If the fluid breaks down, it will solidify and the motor will fail catastrophically. Sometimes you will see a heat signature on the drum.
This is the true culprit that caused the geared engine failures. This disc is what allows the GTSIO motor to run over 3,300 RPM. The gears were never the issue. Overhaulers were reusing the dampers, and most GTSIO pilots don't know the risk of vibration.
Seeing that mag makes me think you had real vibration. Consider replacing the damper. A few weeks ago we lost the #6 cylinder on the left engine...that was a definite vibration. This was either all or nothing, couldn't really feel a vibration. But, like Steve said, roughness is such a judgement call. Thanks, I wasn't aware of that whole issue, will look into it.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:55 |
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Joined: 08/20/09 Posts: 2526 Post Likes: +2078 Company: Jcrane, Inc. Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
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Username Protected wrote: Jack,
Nice find, how much time on the magnetos? May be a good motivation for the recommended 500 hour inspection of mags that few comply with. We're between 200 and 250 hrs on these mags.
_________________ Jack N441M N107XX Bubbles Up
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 17:04 |
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Joined: 12/25/12 Posts: 3865 Post Likes: +4083 Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
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Username Protected wrote: Mags, vacuum pumps and tach generators should be inspected/overhauled every 500 hours on a GTISO. Even on wet vacuum pumps?
_________________ Rocky Hill
Altitude is Everything.
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Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421 Posted: 26 Feb 2016, 18:24 |
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Joined: 01/24/10 Posts: 7359 Post Likes: +5024 Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: Mags, vacuum pumps and tach generators should be inspected/overhauled every 500 hours on a GTISO. Even on wet vacuum pumps?
No. Only dry pumps
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