banner
banner

08 Jun 2025, 13:04 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Stevens Aerospace (Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 15:15 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7359
Post Likes: +5024
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
I feel your pain as a former 421 owner. Those GTSIO's are so complex that we rarely could get 10-15 hrs. without some sort of engine maintenance. I hope you find the culprit soon.



GTSO520's are very reliable if they are maintained well. I have 1200 hours on mine and never had a AOG.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 15:40 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12805
Post Likes: +5255
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Problem from what I've seen/heard/experienced isnt reliability so much as maintainability. They work great til they don't which then can involve a lot of painful, pricey, slow troubleshooting.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:05 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2526
Post Likes: +2078
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Pressurized the induction system looking for leaks...they weren't hard to find.
There were 4 leaks like this one...
[youtube]https://youtu.be/nibJ3lq435E[/youtube]

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:13 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2526
Post Likes: +2078
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
On those induction leaks, the clamps were tight, no gap visible.
After they fixed those I fired up to go for a test flight. Engine started and idled well, much better than previous flight.
Played with it a while, all seemed good. Headed down the taxiway and right engine started to slowly surge again. Stopped and did a mag check at 1500 RPM. Engine died on right mag...completely died. On previous mag checks the right mag dropped a bit more than the left, but not horribly.
Here are pics of the right mag guts...
Now everybody gets a trophy...every guess was right. Fuel problem, air problem, and a spark problem, just for fun. UNBELIEVABLE


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:31 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5193
Post Likes: +3032
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Seriousness of your problems:

1. Mag
2. Crap in fuel lines
3. Induction leaks

I think the onset of your problem in flight was caused by the mag losing some gear teeth.

Probably good you approached the problem the way you did because if you looked at the mag first and fixed it the engine might have run ok but nor great. If you would have stopped then you wouldn't have opened up the injector lines and found the crap and the induction leaks.

Things have a way of working out right.

_________________
Allen


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:37 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13473
Post Likes: +7561
Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC, E-55, 195
There is an AD (or SB) requiring engine shut down with a GTSIO if you have vibration. Vibration can cause the viscous damper to overheat the fluid. If the fluid breaks down, it will solidify and the motor will fail catastrophically. Sometimes you will see a heat signature on the drum.

This is the true culprit that caused the geared engine failures. This disc is what allows the GTSIO motor to run over 3,300 RPM. The gears were never the issue. Overhaulers were reusing the dampers, and most GTSIO pilots don't know the risk of vibration.

Seeing that mag makes me think you had real vibration. Consider replacing the damper.

_________________
Views are my own and don’t represent employers or clients
My E55 : https://tinyurl.com/4dvxhwxu


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:45 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1775
Post Likes: +2008
Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
Jack,

Nice find, how much time on the magnetos? May be a good motivation for the recommended 500 hour inspection of mags that few comply with.

Not sure if you considered the starter drive AD note inspection. It states any engine roughness that can not be corrected by manipulation of the controls would trigger the adapter inspection. Roughness may be a vague term and subject to perceptions by the operator. I do not particularly agree with this as we have replaced these starter adapters that have failed to meet the specification called out in the AD with brand new units from Continental that were right at minimum spec as received. The cost in not inconsequential either.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:50 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2526
Post Likes: +2078
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
Seriousness of your problems:

1. Mag
2. Crap in fuel lines
3. Induction leaks

I think the onset of your problem in flight was caused by the mag losing some gear teeth.

Probably good you approached the problem the way you did because if you looked at the mag first and fixed it the engine might have run ok but nor great. If you would have stopped then you wouldn't have opened up the injector lines and found the crap and the induction leaks.

Things have a way of working out right.

Yes, they do.
Good points...likely we would have fought #2 & #3 for quite some time before finding the problem.

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:53 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7359
Post Likes: +5024
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Mags, vacuum pumps and tach generators should be inspected/overhauled every 500 hours on a GTISO.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:54 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2526
Post Likes: +2078
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
There is an AD (or SB) requiring engine shut down with a GTSIO if you have vibration. Vibration can cause the viscous damper to overheat the fluid. If the fluid breaks down, it will solidify and the motor will fail catastrophically. Sometimes you will see a heat signature on the drum.

This is the true culprit that caused the geared engine failures. This disc is what allows the GTSIO motor to run over 3,300 RPM. The gears were never the issue. Overhaulers were reusing the dampers, and most GTSIO pilots don't know the risk of vibration.

Seeing that mag makes me think you had real vibration. Consider replacing the damper.

A few weeks ago we lost the #6 cylinder on the left engine...that was a definite vibration. This was either all or nothing, couldn't really feel a vibration. But, like Steve said, roughness is such a judgement call.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of that whole issue, will look into it.

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 16:55 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2526
Post Likes: +2078
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
Jack,

Nice find, how much time on the magnetos? May be a good motivation for the recommended 500 hour inspection of mags that few comply with.

We're between 200 and 250 hrs on these mags.

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX
Bubbles Up


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 17:04 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3865
Post Likes: +4083
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
Username Protected wrote:
Mags, vacuum pumps and tach generators should be inspected/overhauled every 500 hours on a GTISO.



Even on wet vacuum pumps?

_________________
Rocky Hill

Altitude is Everything.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2016, 18:24 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7359
Post Likes: +5024
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Mags, vacuum pumps and tach generators should be inspected/overhauled every 500 hours on a GTISO.



Even on wet vacuum pumps?



No. Only dry pumps

Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2016, 01:46 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 04/28/09
Posts: 1556
Post Likes: +108
Company: ARC Group Medical
Location: Jacksonville , FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1976 Bonanza V35TN
What kind of Mags do you have? If they are slick( even pressurized ones) then consider some Bendix...

_________________
Former GenX Bonanza owner.... now flying the 421 Golden Turkey


Top

 Post subject: Re: Engine stumbling C421
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2016, 12:24 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1775
Post Likes: +2008
Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
That is a Bendix mag.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 91 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next



B-Kool (Top/Bottom Banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025

.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.mcfarlane-85x50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.b-kool-85x50.png.
.garmin-85x200-2021-11-22.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.KingAirMaint85_50.png.
.performanceaero-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.aerox_85x100.png.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.holymicro-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.rnp.85x50.png.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.ocraviation-85x50.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.puremedical-85x200.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.Elite-85x50.png.
.midwest2.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.tat-85x100.png.