BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Feb 2016, 21:43

Username Protected wrote:

In my mechanic's hangar is a Cessna TTx. Fine, fine looking airplane. I believe that they sell about 3 of them a century. Why is that you say???? well 'they got no chute'. Regardless of your thoughts about the chute, airplanes with the exact same features and 60lbs more useful load, because they don't have a chute, will not be able to compete with one that does.

The SR22T has a 250lb higher useful load than the TTX despite the chute. Granted, the TTX is utility category, but I don't remember many Cirri shedding wings in regular operation either. A couple of extra knots at the top end and a longer range are the only differentiators that both the TTX and the Acclaim Ultra have over the SR22T. With a chute, both Cessna and Mooney could sell 100 units per year each.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:23

Username Protected wrote:

In my mechanic's hangar is a Cessna TTx. Fine, fine looking airplane. I believe that they sell about 3 of them a century. Why is that you say???? well 'they got no chute'. Regardless of your thoughts about the chute, airplanes with the exact same features and 60lbs more useful load, because they don't have a chute, will not be able to compete with one that does.

The SR22T has a 250lb higher useful load than the TTX despite the chute. Granted, the TTX is utility category, but I don't remember many Cirri shedding wings in regular operation either. A couple of extra knots at the top end and a longer range are the only differentiators that both the TTX and the Acclaim Ultra have over the SR22T. With a chute, both Cessna and Mooney could sell 100 units per year each.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:30

Username Protected wrote:

It's a deficiency (and a glaring one) from marketing standpoint. It's DOA without a chute.

It might be brilliant marketing. Maybe you don't want the pilots who need a chute to buy your plane.

I think it is a bit crazy to think any plane without a chute is a failure given that almost all of them don't. It does allow Cirrus owners to feel superior, though.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:35

Username Protected wrote:

It's a deficiency (and a glaring one) from marketing standpoint. It's DOA without a chute.

It might be brilliant marketing. Maybe you don't want the pilots who need a chute to buy your plane.

I think it is a bit crazy to think any plane without a chute is a failure given that almost all of them don't. It does allow Cirrus owners to feel superior, though.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:38

Many Cirrus owners are first time owner's, and some do all their primary flight training in the Cirrus. Guess that's how you become the number one seller of production singles.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:44

Username Protected wrote:

and safer, which the stats bear out.

I wonder about that.

If we took Mooneys made only during the time SR20/22 were made and looked at the accident rates, it isn't clear to me the Cirrus IS safer.

The problem with other aircraft is that they have a legacy Cirrus doesn't have. This means old less equipped planes, and accident history that goes further back. There are a lot of advancements in equipment, understanding, training, and information since then.

The other point is that if you put Mooney pilots through the same intensive training Cirrus pilots get, then we can compare apples to apples.

I can tell you that during the last 9 years, accident stats for MU2 are way better than King Air. Is the King Air more dangerous? Not really, it is that MU2 pilots get more training.

So perhaps all you really are measuring is training effectiveness, something I have been saying all along. Prior to the Cirrus training push, it was as bad if not worse than other aircraft.

Every single time you really analyze what makes an airplane safe, it is always the same thing, pilot training. It isn't the chute that made the difference.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:51

Username Protected wrote:

Many Cirrus owners are first time owner's, and some do all their primary flight training in the Cirrus. Guess that's how you become the number one seller of production singles.

.............last 4 folks I know in a Cirri came from another brand. Assuming that people purchasing Cirri's are not as smart as 'real pilots' or don't know any better, is a foolish way to look at a very good airplane.

I like that Mooney is trying. They're taking their new airframes, making them composite, moving to a side yoke, improving the interior, diesel engines. etc. etc.

unfortunately Cirrus was doing this 10 years ago......

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:56

Username Protected wrote:

Every single time you really analyze what makes an airplane safe, it is always the same thing, pilot training. It isn't the chute that made the difference.

Mike C.

Pilot training is one of the most important things........chute is an added benefit, it's not a negative, it logically cannot be.

From a marketing perspective Mooney is doing better things, they're just missing the boat as to what the customer wants, and a single engine piston pilot predominantly wants an airplane with a chute.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 00:58

Username Protected wrote:

chute is an added benefit, it's not a negative, it logically cannot be.

Sure it can. It can influence pilot behavior to get into more danger than they would otherwise if they didn't have it.

This is why the accident rate was initially WORSE.

Quote:

a single engine piston pilot predominantly wants an airplane with a chute.

You don't speak for all of them, maybe not even most of them.

The vast majority of single engine piston airplanes sold don't have chutes. Check the delivery stats.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:00

Username Protected wrote:

I think it is a bit crazy to think any plane without a chute is a failure given that almost all of them don't. It does allow Cirrus owners to feel superior, though.

Old ones don't. As far as new ones are concerned, though, only those with chutes seem to sell well.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:01

Username Protected wrote:

Quote:

a single engine piston pilot predominantly wants an airplane with a chute.

You don't speak for all of them, maybe not even most of them.

The vast majority of single engine piston airplanes sold don't have chutes. Check the delivery stats.

Mike C.

Your first piece is opinion I'll ignore it, the second I did not realize was the case. That's my bad. I will review.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:04

Username Protected wrote:

Your first piece is opinion I'll ignore it, the second I did not realize was the case. That's my bad. I will review.

Don't bother. It's not the case.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:05

Username Protected wrote:

Your first piece is opinion I'll ignore it, the second I did not realize was the case. That's my bad. I will review.

It is correct if you include 172s, Cub-crafters, Maules etc. into the 'single engine' category.

If you compare apples to apples, G36, Mooney, Columbia derivatives Cirrus outsold them 10:1.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:08

Hot damn, only a 1/3rd of new piston singles were Cirri's.
What amazed me even more was that Cessna moved 32 TTx's in q4, 2015 and a 143 172's for the year........

Mooney moved 11 airplanes.......that's good to see.....anyone want a used M20J?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Feb 2016, 01:19

Username Protected wrote:

Don't bother. It's not the case. ;)

Wrong.

Here are the numbers for shipments of piston singles from 2010 to 2014:

American Champion: 140
Beechcraft: 125
Cessna: 1361
Cirrus: 1356
Cub Crafters: 228
Diamond: 140
Extra: 87
Flight Design: 342
Gippsland: 67
Liberty: 17
Maule: 25
Mooney: 3
Piper: 464
Tecnam: 239
Waco: 24

Total: 4618

Cirrus is 29.4% of piston singles sold over that period. They were #2 just behind Cessna in unit sales.

In other words, more than 70% of the buyers chose something other than Cirrus.

(GAMA doesn't have 2015 data complete yet, so this is the latest 5 year span available)

Go check my numbers at GAMA:

http://gama.aero/media-center/industry- ... t-database

Mike C.

The New Mooney 2 Door Coupe